Integrating the Community More...

[The_NZA]

Hello Smashboards and PMBR. It's good to be back!!!

I posted this message on the PM facebook page, but I thought I would introduce it here to start a lively discussion in the place it really counts.

It would be cool for people in the community with character Ideas to feel more involved in the process of making suggestions. Obviously there are a lot of bad suggestions out there but many of us who actually main our characters have immense knowledge of the different playstyles available to our characters, even if we are not part of the PMBR.

I give the example of the "Ness skype group" that started about 2 months ago, putting many of the major Ness players (Gmaster, Sin B, Eli, me, k9, Spiffy, Aliami, and others) in daily chat contact. The Ness metagame is getting pushed forward, but unfortunately Calabrel (the only person actually designing Ness) isn't there.

Now, Cal is an incredibly talented Ness player, but he plays Ness using his own style (much like many PMBR members). I and other players have developed distinct styles that differ from his. But since he is designing Ness, he might not be completely aware of the full range of ways to play the character and may not design the character with respect to other styles. That's why community input on character design is ultimately a VERY good thing. It allows for the broadest view of the character as the design for him/her evolves.

My solution: I think the PMBR should have "character input dailies" where they maybe podcast on a specific character and take callins/questions from chat, reacting to or responding to certain character ideas. I think this could be very good for the game, and I wonder who else would be interested in something like this.

 

[Paradoxium]

I really should be paying attention in math class rather than browsing smashboards lol.
But this, this should have been happening from the very beginning. The only thing I disliked about the pmbr was their lack interaction with the community. I felt many players had no influence or say on many of the changes. Input daily's would be a great way to hear from the community, I feel with community input this game will definatly be more balanced/fun.

 

[trojanpooh]

Community interactivity is fun and all, but the more opaque the dev process is the better for fan projects like this. We have our character suggestion thread which the team reads but doesn't respond to. That's good enough. To put it bluntly, 99% of fans are stupid when it comes to game design. Anyone can think of "cool" ideas to implement, but it takes a special kind of brain to balance and create real good game design ideas.

 

[Shadic]

We pay a lot more attention to player suggestions and results than I think people realize. However, we don't comment too much in public about stuff because our energy is probably better spent in private debates and design rather than doing so in the public. Not to mention people getting jaded if we comment on some suggestion other than theirs, etc.

 

[trojanpooh]

Yeah, I personally know that at least one of my ideas was tested behind the valiantium door that protects the PMBR from peering eyes. I asked one of the devs if they tried my idea and they basically said they liked it a lot and tried a number of iterations but in the end it just didn't work out. So yeah, they're secretive and they don't like showing their hand too early, but they do listen.

 

[Strong Badam]

Here's some more insight from another PMBR member:

There are many reasons why we tend to avoid widespread community interaction. The non-PMBR player base is unable to predict how their character will react to changes that other characters have received, changes to global game mechanics, or even newly introduced characters that weren't in previous builds. They may suggest buffs to help their character against something that another does currently, but doesn't do or does worse in the development build.
The non-PMBR player base often does not know what changes are possible or what changes actually have a relevant impact on that character's competitive toolkit. We've learned these through nearly 4 years of working on the game and analyzing tournament data/footage, and it's not realistic to expect a player, no matter how good, to understand these concepts.

To respond to the OP's concerns:
Generally speaking we try to avoid a single player having full reign over a character, and try to make sure we develop the character with its full player base in mind. When we lack multiple or even a single high-level player for a character, we reach out to non-PMBR players for input. Examples in the past include but are not limited to Armada, Dakpo, Vro, and Wizzrobe. Now, we're not always perfect in regards to this issue. We're always looking for ways to improve our development process. You're free, and are in fact encouraged, to bring to our attention such cases. However, in the vast majority of cases this isn't a problem.

Suggesting a podcast as you describe has its own host of problems as well. Since PM is obviously a volunteer project, we have limited amounts of time to work on it. A podcast where we take community questions and answer them obviously takes valuable time away from our members that could otherwise be spent on working toward Project M's eventual completion delaying how early you, the players, get the next public release. Furthermore, it's an extremely awkward situation when the developers of the game are demanded an explanation for a change, especially in a situation where the public is able to respond with something like "Well I don't agree with that and it makes the game worse." Have you ever seen a Capcom balance designer talk directly to a player and explain why Cammy can no longer TK her divekick in AE 2011 & 2012? While most players probably agree with the change including most high level Cammy players, you can't please everyone, and it's poor publicity to highlight a change as negative even if (and especially when) the community at large generally agrees. When people doubt the developers, they doubt the game, which wouldn't bode well for our currently budding but still limited tournament scene. Additionally, the PMBR acts as a unified group in public, but much of the development process is filled with debates, disagreements, compromise, and revision. We're not all like-minded in game design, and expecting answers to questions from the community is a sticky issue when we ourselves don't always see eye to eye on each individual change.

As Shadic pointed out, contrary to popular belief our player base actually has a significantly higher influence on game development for Project M than any other competitive game. We're always watching, and just because we don't have a conversational dialog going doesn't mean the thoughts and opinions of the players aren't being heard.

 

[Vigilante]

The Google+ Newsfeed I recently started is kind of intended to be a direct communication channel.

But yes, a lot of the things that seem like they would fit right on paper just don't work out that well in practice. Nevertheless, we check your feedback to look for ideas, and we sometimes get new ones from looking at yours.

 

[Mithost]

With the Ness example, you might be missing a major point here. The PMBR does not just look inside of their little bubble when deciding what the current metagame is like. They watch the streams, the tournaments, and even the friendlies that each character participates in. When Cal watches the top ness players using the character he designed, I can almost guarantee that he doesn't say "Hey, these guys are playing my character wrong! I need to take away their tools so they play him the way I intended!".

 

[Vigilante]

Yes, we do collect a sizeable amount of data in-between demoes. Don't worry, we don't make changes "just because".

 

[The_NZA]

Community interactivity is fun and all, but the more opaque the dev process is the better for fan projects like this. We have our character suggestion thread which the team reads but doesn't respond to. That's good enough.

So first off, I want to be clear––it is admirable how much the BR involves the community currently. It is cool you guys read the idea threads, and it isn't always clear to us that you guys actively do that since you don't post in them. I know I've started the equivalent of a "character suggestions" thread on the Ness forum and Link forum, and I think if those topics had been started by a BR member, I'd have more confidence in knowing it was being read.

But the activity of backroom members on smashboards points to what Strongbad already alluded to: "[PM's] player base actually has a significantly higher influence on game development for Project M than any other competitive game. " However, that alone doesn't answer the ultimate question: is it at the best place it can be.

This thread wasn't designed to "call y'all out", and it certainly wasn't made to call out Calabrel. It was made to brainstorm on what the best foundation is to make this game––the game you guys pour your sweat in and we all adore––the greatest it can be. All I ask is an openness to consider some of these ideas.

To put it bluntly, 99% of fans are stupid when it comes to game design. Anyone can think of "cool" ideas to implement, but it takes a special kind of brain to balance and create real good game design ideas.

I don't think this is an accurate or healthy attitude. Day[9] of the Starcraft community always points to how even "Bronze league" players have valid opinions on good design or intelligent strategies and I tend to agree with him. Let's not forget––the person who invented the foundations of Melee and some of our favorite moves was probably less skilled at the game than you or me. I don't think 99% of the vocal fans are braindead when it comes to game design. It's probably closer to 60 or 70% but ignoring all of them on that basis cuts out a lot of "play testers" in this "beta" who have a vast swath of experiences.

The BR process does not do anything special, IMO, to get that top 1% of game designers. To be in the BR, people have to
1. play a lot
2. they have to be good
3. they have to place in tourneys (in an incredibly small scene)
4. have recording abilities to apply as a QA tester, (or coding/Graphic design skill)

Some of us don't have a thriving tourney scene, or camera capture technology. I know I am waiting to go to more tourneys before I apply to the BR, because until I get some rankings, I don't think I have a chance to be considered credible. But many people who can't put a check next to each of those boxes are still chock full of good ideas and doing a podcast is one of the most risk-free ways to hear those ideas without getting those people directly involved in development. Hell, if an idea is stupid, it'll be obvious to the individual designing a character and it will get veto'd.

Finally, I don't think having Mango-tier skill is required to perceive the best game. It might be required to test the brokenness of an idea, but really, anyone could have come up with Ike's quickdraw, one of my favorite ideas in PM. You don't have to be as good as Metroid at wavedash quickdraw mindgames to know that jump canceling it opens a ton of amazing opportunities.

Here's some more insight from another PMBR member:

There are many reasons why we tend to avoid widespread community interaction. The non-PMBR player base is unable to predict how their character will react to changes that other characters have received, changes to global game mechanics, or even newly introduced characters that weren't in previous builds. They may suggest buffs to help their character against something that another does currently, but doesn't do or does worse in the development build.
The non-PMBR player base often does not know what changes are possible or what changes actually have a relevant impact on that character's competitive toolkit. We've learned these through nearly 4 years of working on the game and analyzing tournament data/footage, and it's not realistic to expect a player, no matter how good, to understand these concepts.

Totally valid, Strongbad, but I am not asking for the BR to raffle a character idea to a stranger. This is about hearing community ideas and letting the developers act as a filter to filter the good and bad ideas in and out. If someone is asking to change a character interaction that doesn't appear to exist anymore because the next build will be changing it, the developer handling the podcast will know that. And it is in his power to say "we are already changing this, and I can't go into more details. We will wait for the next iteration before we playtest this idea any further".

To respond to the OP's concerns:
Generally speaking we try to avoid a single player having full reign over a character, and try to make sure we develop the character with its full player base in mind. When we lack multiple or even a single high-level player for a character, we reach out to non-PMBR players for input. Examples in the past include but are not limited to Armada, Dakpo, Vro, and Wizzrobe. Now, we're not always perfect in regards to this issue. We're always looking for ways to improve our development process. You're free, and are in fact encouraged, to bring to our attention such cases. However, in the vast majority of cases this isn't a problem.

I really appreciate knowing that you try and get as many people involved with developing a character. But consider this hypothetical situation:
You bring in Wizzrobe to work on Sonic because many people in the BR don't play him, and Sonic gets changed. He ends up in a "good place" and you thank Wizzy for his work. For 2.7, 2.8, 2.9, 3.0, tons of work is done on Wolf, Metaknight, Ike, Wario, DK––the new favorites. Suddenly, there is a large tier divide, and not just a tier divide but a "completeness" divide. Some characters like sonic won't get brought up anymore because no one is fighting for them in the BR anymore. Wizzy's already been thanked, and while he might be pressured to same something, he isn't part of the BR so he's quiet. (again: hypothetical)

It's a hypothetical, but it's probably true for some characters. The BR definitely loves the characters it created, but I could easily see some that are not as throughly played in the BR getting less love (spitballing here, but maybe Squirtle, Ness, Luigi, Pikachu, DDD, TLink, and Zelda could fall a bit more on the way side in the coming months). Having podcasts for the individual characters gives a reason to constantly revisit the creative development of those characters that "feel complete" just to put icing on the cake.

Suggesting a podcast as you describe has its own host of problems as well. Since PM is obviously a volunteer project, we have limited amounts of time to work on it. A podcast where we take community questions and answer them obviously takes valuable time away from our members that could otherwise be spent on working toward Project M's eventual completion delaying how early you, the players, get the next public release.

Duly noted, and as a community member, I am asking for more work. But it's really a minimal time investment for enormous value. I count 40 total characters of which 5 (fox, falco, shiek, marth, peach) are universally believed to be creatively "complete". That's 35 hours of development time across every PM developer, and what you get are a swath of great ideas of which only ONE is needed to make the game a better game.

Furthermore, it's an extremely awkward situation when the developers of the game are demanded an explanation for a change, especially in a situation where the public is able to respond with something like "Well I don't agree with that and it makes the game worse." Have you ever seen a Capcom balance designer talk directly to a player and explain why Cammy can no longer TK her divekick in AE 2011 & 2012? While most players probably agree with the change including most high level Cammy players, you can't please everyone, and it's poor publicity to highlight a change as negative even if (and especially when) the community at large generally agrees. When people doubt the developers, they doubt the game, which wouldn't bode well for our currently budding but still limited tournament scene. Additionally, the PMBR acts as a unified group in public, but much of the development process is filled with debates, disagreements, compromise, and revision. We're not all like-minded in game design, and expecting answers to questions from the community is a sticky issue when we ourselves don't always see eye to eye on each individual change.

So there are two points you are making here:
1. Tradition: have you ever seen anyone else do this? No, well its probably for a good reason.
2. Publicity: It is bad for the game when you make decisions that people dont like.

On 1, I think Project M is in a really special place that defies analogous precedents. You have a small active community, a lot of which participate online and accept your "credibility" as competitive players and designers. You have a constantly evolving demo based product that people know is subject to change. And you have a small community––which gives you certain benefits that no other game has. You don't have to follow and it isn't even optimal to follow the precedents of Capcom, or Valve, or Blizzard.

But lets talk concrete about the podcast idea. If you put on a twitch.tv podcast on a character, and advertised it on smashboards, you would likely have 20-30 people in the channel, max. If someone did that for streetfighter, they would be looking at a chatbox flooded by thousands of fans. This conversation you could have with the community would be limited in its risks, but it would mean the world to those people who want to contribute their voice.

2. As far as bad publicity goes, I realize it can be awkward. And hell, even uncomfortable. But I don't think the overall result could ever impact your credibility in a major way.

You guys aren't small fries––You've invented a game with 35 balanced characters. You have credentials as excellent players yourselves (people always rag on Blizzard because David Kim, the Starcraft 2 designer isn't a pro player). I wouldn't sell yourselves short by saying "people will think less of our project because we didn't make the decisions they wanted". We are all here, posting on this forum because we trust you, and even when we disagree with how you handled one move, you designed 1000 other good ones to keep us playing your game. After all, we forgave Sakurai for how he handled 17 characters in Melee because he got 8 of them right. I don't think there is that much risk involved with a chatroom of 15 or 20 people.

Actually, I think it would help your credibility. People knowing that their characters will keep evolving and that by playing the game and discovering holes in the gameplay of their characters, they can make suggestions that will improve the longevity of the game. If nothing else, there is minimal risk to try the idea once with a character. I'd suggest Ness :D.

That's my rant. Thank you for reading, BR.

 

[The_NZA]

With the Ness example, you might be missing a major point here. The PMBR does not just look inside of their little bubble when deciding what the current metagame is like. They watch the streams, the tournaments, and even the friendlies that each character participates in. When Cal watches the top ness players using the character he designed, I can almost guarantee that he doesn't say "Hey, these guys are playing my character wrong! I need to take away their tools so they play him the way I intended!".

Btw, I'm sure Calabrel does all this. But some people who have good ideas don't have large tourney scenes around them, some don't have the tech to stream, most just don't have capture card equipment.

Finally, it's hard to communicate ideas purely through the way you play the game. Some ideas need to be said out loud.

For example, the idea of a DDD belly slide where he slides fast across the ground and his only option out of it is to jump. Or some of the ideas I have with Ness.

So really, I think a podcast provides unique avenues to consider game design ideas that currently aren't available for the BR.

 

[trojanpooh]

Just to be clear, I'm not a BR member. When I said "we have the character suggestion threads" I mean we, the fans. It seems to me like the issue you have is that things aren't transparent. The BR uses our tourney data, our suggestions for unreleased characters, our complaints about current characters and all of that good stuff when balancing the game and designing new moves. Is it really so important that you see every step of the way? Because as is it seems like they're doing everything you want them to do except telling you about it.

 

[The_NZA]

Just to be clear, I'm not a BR member. When I said "we have the character suggestion threads" I mean we, the fans. It seems to me like the issue you have is that things aren't transparent. The BR uses our tourney data, our suggestions for unreleased characters, our complaints about current characters and all of that good stuff when balancing the game and designing new moves. Is it really so important that you see every step of the way? Because as is it seems like they're doing everything you want them to do except telling you about it.

Listen, I've already gone through great lengths to say why there is a positive incentive to having something like a podcast in place, and It's not just about "seeing every step". If you can't respect me enough to specifically pick apart what I said and comment on it, I'm not sure if I should be expected to defend what I've already written by rewriting it again and again. A conversation requires us to build off of what has already been said, and I said quite a bit.

 

[trojanpooh]

First off slow your roll, this isn't a matter of respect, I read all your posts and answered as I found necessary. Not everything needs to be picked apart with surgical precision. Don't take offense from my lack of desire to pick apart a freaking page of text one line at a time.

I didn't touch up on the Podcast idea since to put it simply, it feels overly flashy and unnecessary. If you want more visible response from the backroom why limit it to an hour long podcast (which, by the way, way more than 20 people would show up for) and not just request more thread presence? I'm not going to go into great detail as to why it's good that the backroom is so secretive because all of us have gone into pretty good detail on why it's better this way, but I'll throw in a few bullet points as a refresher. I'm not going to reread the thread either so there's a chance that I'll miss some or make up some new ones here:

*Takes time away from development
*Can create friction between the fans
*Stunts fan creativity (by showing off the in use ideas)
*Dulls hype
*Takes attention away from 2.6b
*Brawl+ 'nuff said

I'd also like to real quick explain my comments about how not everyone is cut out to help. I wasn't suggesting that not everyone is good enough at the game, though that is some of the problem. The issue is that with 50% of players who are actually good enough and, say, 10% or less able to understand game design well enough to contribute (yes, yes, arbitrary percents. The point is small numbers) how many good candidates for valid input do you have left when you look for the people who fall in the overlap? If the BR was as transparent as you're asking for the result would essentially be them telling 95% of people that their ideas are bad and the other 5% that they'd take them for a test ride. Not so good for public relations, eh?

 

[ItalianStallion]

I'm finding it hard to take a side on this issue. On one hand, I agree with NZA because all it takes is one community member (Even a newbie) to come up with something cool that can really make a difference. For example, NZA's belly slide idea for DDD sounds really fun and unique. It's possible it could turn out to be a bad idea for the game, but it's also possible it could turn out to be a cool addition. Getting the BR members more directly involved can have them uncover some gold mines of good ideas (That may admittedly be amid a mound of bad ideas). Another example is an idea of my own. I made a Mewtwo suggestion list a long time ago (On the old site) and I gave my ideas for every move Mewtwo had. While a lot of the stuff wasn't universally well received, there was one idea that was: His jab using his idle animation (He is Psychic after all). The idea is even a part of the community made Mewtwo project. Even small things like that can really round-off a character. Who knows who may have the next great idea for PM? P

But I also understand that opening up the floodgates on a more personal level with the BR and the community can also cause problems and rifts. There's definitely going to be a good number of sore fans who didn't get their ideas tested. Also, even if the topic is assigned to be Ness one day, you know there is going to be a hundred people trying to force in their suggestions for other characters. Some members of the smash community are mature and well spoken, but a great many are the exact opposite. If everyone that suggested ideas to the BR had the same manners and English proficiency as The_NZA and the many other quality members we have, it would be a fantastic idea. But then you also have those that are just rude, annoying, arrogant, vindictive, and so on.

 

[Mithost]

Project M does not feel like an incomplete game. It hasn't since 2.0. If we learned about upcoming features as they were in the concept phase, where would the hype be when it finally arrives? The clone engine has been a goal for Project M for a couple YEARS now. Roy was initially made fairly early into development. What if we were told 2 years ago that the clone engine might be in the game eventually? What if suddenly in the supposed dev stream, there was a character select icon for Mewtwo?

The hype would die. Announcements would be old news for most people by the time features were finished. Turbo mode and 2.6 was a testament to this. Turbo had an announcement trailer that looked like a completed product. When it was confirmed real, many people (me included) saw absolutely no reason why it wouldn't be in the next public release. When 2.6 came along with no turbo, the hype took a major blow. Nobody was as excited for it anymore because 3.0 was (and still is) a long ways away from being launched.

If we learned about new features before they were near completed, every release that does not have every single feature in the stream will be a disappointment instead of something to invite your friends over for.

I would rather the PMBR have more thread presence in the character/feature suggestion forums. I honestly view a dev stream the same way I would view a "behind the scenes" for the next episode of doctor who, before the episode is even finished yet. I'm sure the people working on _____ can really hype up the people who use _______ by simply posting more vague stuff in their threads. Quoting popular ideas just saying "interesting idea" will keep anyone who supports the idea hyped for a few weeks. Things like "We're working on something like this" or "Keep an eye out on the announcements page" will do better than any dev stream.

 

[The_NZA]

Project M does not feel like an incomplete game. It hasn't since 2.0. If we learned about upcoming features as they were in the concept phase, where would the hype be when it finally arrives? The clone engine has been a goal for Project M for a couple YEARS now. Roy was initially made fairly early into development. What if we were told 2 years ago that the clone engine might be in the game eventually? What if suddenly in the supposed dev stream, there was a character select icon for Mewtwo?

The hype would die. Announcements would be old news for most people by the time features were finished. Turbo mode and 2.6 was a testament to this. Turbo had an announcement trailer that looked like a completed product. When it was confirmed real, many people (me included) saw absolutely no reason why it wouldn't be in the next public release. When 2.6 came along with no turbo, the hype took a major blow. Nobody was as excited for it anymore because 3.0 was (and still is) a long ways away from being launched.

If we learned about new features before they were near completed, every release that does not have every single feature in the stream will be a disappointment instead of something to invite your friends over for.

I would rather the PMBR have more thread presence in the character/feature suggestion forums. I honestly view a dev stream the same way I would view a "behind the scenes" for the next episode of doctor who, before the episode is even finished yet. I'm sure the people working on _____ can really hype up the people who use _______ by simply posting more vague stuff in their threads. Quoting popular ideas just saying "interesting idea" will keep anyone who supports the idea hyped for a few weeks. Things like "We're working on something like this" or "Keep an eye out on the announcements page" will do better than any dev stream.

Sorry for the snappiness, trojan. I was just disappointed at your initial response but I think your next one more than made up for it.

1*Takes time away from development
2*Can create friction between the fans
3*Stunts fan creativity (by showing off the in use ideas)
4*Dulls hype
5*Takes attention away from 2.6b
6*Brawl+ 'nuff said

were your major points and I think that's a good summary of what SB highlighted.
1) I think the time aspect is obviously true and can't be refuted. I don't think it would take that much time, but it would take some.

2) I think the friction point is being overplayed. People already have put a ton of credibility in the BR and you guys have the added benefit of being actual pro players. If anything, the current way nerfs are handed down is worse on a PR level than a direct interaction, because someone like me who doesn't know how active the BR is on my character might hand down a nerf (whether right or wrong) and because I don't know how the BR thinks, I might not fully grasp how much they are truly invested in my main.

This process of "blaming the developer" is endemic with any nerf, no doubt. But what we have seen with the spacie nerf, for example, is that by talking it out, the community can begin to accept as legitimate. In the official BR spacie topic, many people have commented saying "I was against a change at first, but after hearing BR members, I get the philosophy." In the status quo, unless someone wrote a developer diary on your character, you are completely in the dark why certain changes were made/not made and (in the case of nerfs) people get far more bothered than if they had a chance to air an idea and a BR member said "I don't think that would work" or "we tried it and it didn't end up working".

3) I didn't really understand this one to be honest.

4) As far as the hype thing goes, I think you are both right and wrong. If a cool idea emerges like the DDD belly slide, even if the podcaster said "that's an interesting idea. We might take a second look at that," and it suddenly shows up in the next changelog, I WOULD BE SO EXCITED! By contrast, if they never brought up the bellyslide and it shows up, there might be a "wtf" moment of surprise that is exciting in and of itself. But there's nothing ensuring the BR would take a second look at the belly slide in the first place!

Overall, I don't know how much the hype thing even factors in because the people watching the podcast are the same ones who are going to be excited no matter what to try out the new feature. In other words, that "hype" is such a marginal cost in comparisons to the benefit.

5) I also don't know why this would be. I would be invested in practicing and playing, especially if a new version looks to continue my interest in the franchise.

6) I don't understand this one, either really. But i have confidence that the BR can do it right.

On a final note, I don't think a podcast is exclusively what is required...I'm just pushing for a bit more integration. Like someone suggested, it could be as easy as BR members posting on character Idea threads making clear that they are listening.

 

[The_NZA]

If everyone that suggested ideas to the BR had the same manners and English proficiency as The_NZA and the many other quality members we have, it would be a fantastic idea.

Thanks by the way. Very sweet of you to say. :D

 

[The_NZA]

I'm bumping this topic. Even if you guys don't do podcasts, it would be lovely to see you guys post more in "idea" threads, even just to let us know that our ideas are being paid attention to. It can be really disheartening to think hard, write a bunch of ideas, shrug your shoulders and say "I'm not sure if anyone is even going to read this".

Thanks guys!