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Innovation Without Compromise

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 8, 2007
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Toronto, Ontario
(I'm cutting two paragraphs that basically said Melee and brawl were enjoyed by casuals, let's discuss ways to keep the game fresh without compromising the mechanics for competitive play)

Carbon copy melee physics aren't necessary, but let's be honest, while uninformed people blast wavedashing as some sort of glitch, it was actually a fantastic spacing and movement tool that was necessary and its use separated the skill of players. Essentially, I don't feel like cutting out what wasn't broken as being an innovation, rather I'd like to see more options instead of less. Brawl players complain that things that were actually good in Brawl were cut from PM, that doesn't need to happen either. Something like DACUS should stay as well.

Shield dynamics in Smash have always been the same and with Namco on board it might be interesting to see things from TFG infused. While I like shields in Smash this is just an idea on how to actually make a gameplay change instead of neutering another mechanic. RPS strategies are important for every competitive game as well as Risk vs. Reward and positional advantages. The next game should focus on ways of adding to what smash already has in those circumstances. Ledge options should be limited and timing should be important, both melee and brawl have issues with their ledge games.

Something I could really get behind that would actually innovate the series is a new competitive mode like Tag Team Battles. I mean actual tag team battles to go along with Singles and Doubles. Essentially Singles with a twist where each player gets a multiple of two stocks shared between two characters similar to the Marvel series. The characters not in use can have preset abilities to compliment your current playstyle. They can be used to aid in edgeguarding or continue a combo or get you out of a bad situation while having limits to their use to keep your use of them to be thought out and planned or practiced. Switching between them would be possible on the fly but would leave you open and this would bring something actually fun for both competitive and casual play and could become a mainstay if it was well thought out enough.

I could write more but this is meant to be a discussion so share your ideas or opinions if you want to, I'm just really trying to kill time until my next class.
 

Ometa

Smash Apprentice
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I don't really see what they could do to improve the ledge game, I mean, its rock paper IMO.
I agree, your idea for a new competitive mode is neat =J
 

DakotaBonez

The Depraved Optimist
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
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San Marcos, Texas
Yes, DACUS was still in Project M but its sliding effect was reduced.

Personally, I hope that the next smash will be able to be patched of traction exploits like DACUS and Wavedashing. And while were at it remove RAR (Reverse Aerial Rush) and the many final smash glitches.
It's hard for programmers to predict players pressing multiple inputs at once, especially on keyboards. They tend to overlook the outcome of multiple inputs because controllers can only have the analog sticks or D-Pad pressed in one direction at a time. But the inclusion of a second analog stick that performs the same maneuver as the Left Analog Stick + A button only makes coding more problematic. Not to mention that you then have to make everything work for multiple controller types! It's a nightmare!
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
Joined
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"Personally, I hope that the next smash will be able to be patched of traction exploits like DACUS and Wavedashing. And while were at it remove RAR (Reverse Aerial Rush)."

Uhm, why?
 

DakotaBonez

The Depraved Optimist
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As for the ledge game, I thought it would be awesome if you could input the grab button while hanging from the ledge to grab opponents guarding the ledge and pull them off the side by their feet. This would place your opponent beneath you requiring you to either hurry back onto the stage or get blasted from below.

As for why I'm against traction exploits and RAR, that is because they cannot be performed on each controller type. It would be less of a deal if they stuck to The Gamepad and Pro/Classic controllers for the next smash but they might possibly include the wii motes and nunchuck style of play again.

I'm a strong supporter of some sort of team battle or tag battle if they can somehow pull it off without lag like ya see in the swap between Shiek and Zelda occasionally.To prevent repetitive tagging, they could restrict it to only tagging during throws. Or just make it so your other characters only appear after you get KOd.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Toronto, Ontario
You're against physics exploits because they were not optimized for use on the controllers that wouldn't be used by the people who use physics exploits. I find that a flimsy argument, I doubt the kid next door is mad about DACUS because of his wiimote style of play. So yes, that would be compromising competitive play for the sake of casual play and not the route I want this discussion to go.

As for tagging, I had been thinking the switch was immediate but the character coming in has a hurtbox on frame 1 and a 1 second animation, so yeah like Zelda/Shiek. I think limiting tagging to grabs making it harder for certain characters to tag when it might be nice to switch after you take a stock. Although that does give me the idea of using tag-grabs for chaingrabs and I like that.

As for your ledge throw idea, I also like that. Perhaps the character could pop-up from the grab so you'll be punished if you spam and whiff the grab, it would be cool for reversals.
 

DakotaBonez

The Depraved Optimist
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If there was a crouching grab, ya could grab opponents hanging from the ledge and pull them up.

I have no idea what allows some games to be able to perform immediate tags like the clash of ninja and capcom vs series, when smash bros and tekken have a noticeable lag.
 

Shadic

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As for why I'm against traction exploits and RAR, that is because they cannot be performed on each controller type. It would be less of a deal if they stuck to The Gamepad and Pro/Classic controllers for the next smash but they might possibly include the wii motes and nunchuck style of play again.
You're seriously wanting to handicap a game because some people have awful taste in controllers?

Just because Brawl can be played with only a Wiimote doesn't mean you should if you're wanting to win. They certainly should never curb the game around it.


Also P:M's "limits" on the DACUS are entirely from the physics changes. Higher friction means you slide less. Quicker jumpstart means certain characters that used to be able to DACUS can't, and some who couldn't can.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
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What do you mean by lag. Do you mean from the moment you press the button to the point it begins? Because that's your tv, not the game.

If you mean it happens and you have to wait, that is intended. It is intended so that it can be punished if you use it all willy nilly. You shouldn't be able to go from Zelda to Shiek mid combo without a frame of 'lag' as that would cause a huge amount of balancing issues. MvC also has lag if this is what you mean, upon switching your character will jump in from offscreen and will not be able to perform any action until they touch the ground. This is so your opponent has the upperhand to hit you out of it if you switch poorly and all goes into Risk vs. Reward. There are recovery frames on everything, if you miss a grab you must wait until your character returns to a neutral stance before you can move, while it is small it gives your opponent an opening and makes you think about timing.

Game developers aren't missing out on special technology, they're balancing the switch. You can not like that, but I think it's a small problem for casuals and a big thing for competitive players, which goes back to what I want to discuss.
 

DakotaBonez

The Depraved Optimist
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I am referring to the lag caused from loading the character into the game.In melee, Shiek and Zelda were always loaded into the games memory so they could be switched instantly, minus the transformation animation. In brawl, they weren't preloaded.

You may have noticed in brawl that by pausing the game ya could speed up the transformation, and how it freezes replays during transformation, or you can hear the disc make noises when ya transform.Because the characters take up a large amount of memory, the game has to load them in. There is also a delay with samus transformation and the pokemon trainer too I believe.

I don't know if they could go the preload route like in melee if many characters are like the Pokemon Trainer and Zelda/Shiek or ZSS/Samus.

If anything is taken from brawl, the ability to instantly pull off air attacks as soon as you pressed the jump button was awesome. I noticed in project m that you had to wait a couple of frames before air attacking. I don't know if it was the same in melee or if primarily melee players would even notice. I don't even know if it was because I was using a classic controller.

Also I wasn't against the limits on DACUS in project m. I was glad they increased the friction. Project M also fixed the zelda/shiek lag, not sure if they preloaded them or used some other method.
 

KrIsP!

Smash Champion
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Oh, I didn't know that. Brawl in general just had memory issues, the whole double disc debacle, hopefully Namco's numbers can help them with things like that.
 

Shadic

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If anything is taken from brawl, the ability to instantly pull off air attacks as soon as you pressed the jump button was awesome. I noticed in project m that you had to wait a couple of frames before air attacking. I don't know if it was the same in melee or if primarily melee players would even notice. I don't even know if it was because I was using a classic controller.
Uh, what?

That is quite literally the opposite of the truth. Brawl has a dead frame where it ignores all inputs during jump. Melee and Project M both lack that flaw.

You may be buffering your input in Brawl, and confusing that ease of input as Brawl letting you "input sooner." That's not the case.
 

BluePikmin11

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Does anyone know about the powershield technique in SSF2, it allows you to reflect a projectile if you shield at the right moment. They should add that mechanic in SSB4.
 

FalKoopa

Rainbow Waifu
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Does anyone know about the powershield technique in SSF2, it allows you to reflect a projectile if you shield at the right moment. They should add that mechanic in SSB4.

That reflecting property of the technique was taken from Melee. :p
 
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