Here's the rough draft of that grab guide I never finished. I didn't finish it because I felt like I was preaching to the choir since everybody here already knows most of the things I had to say, but if you want to use this for whatever reason, go ahead.
edit: reading it in the code box is obnoxious, but I didn't want to take up a bunch of space in this thread. It's easier to read if you quote this post or if you copy and paste it into Notepad or something.
Code:
The Basic Grab Compendium
-------------------------
This is a collection of pragmatic information pertaining to the ICs' grabs. It should be noted that there are many esoteric options out of grabs that I
haven't listed here; I have only listed chain grabs and finishers that I believe are useful reasonably often and not strictly inferior to other options.
disclaimers
-
I always assume grabs are JC grabs unless stated otherwise
-
Contents:
-Chain Grabs
--dthrow
--dthrow -> dair
--the handoff
--fsmash -> grab
--wobbling
Chain Grabs (CGs)
-----------------
I preface this section with a simple and general question that every ICs has thought about, ot at least should: "What makes a CG good?"
When I contemplate whether a CG is worth doing/learning, there are several main, interrelated traits I consider:
(1) How easily can my opponent escape this?
(2) How quickly does this CG rack up damage?
(3) How difficult is this to perform?
(4) What is the risk if I make an error?
(5) Are there are any other similar options I have that are safer or easier?
(1) is a question that is usually hard to difficult to answer concretely. For a number of reasons, it may be considerably easier from a technical
perspective for one character to escape some CG than another character. At the same time, I consider what the cost to the opponent of trying to escape is.
For example, in the case of the dthrow -> fsmash -> grab CG on space animals, it is relatively easy to escape by DI'ing away, but DI'ing away is very risky
since they'll probably die if you release the fsmash early. The answer to (2) is always important in doubles and can be important in singles depending on
how easy the CG is to escape and how difficult it is to perform. (4) is important for difficult CGs and CGs that take a while, and (5) is there to make sure
I'm not wasting time learning something when I have another, better option that serves many of the same purposes.
Every chain grab I recommend here holds up well here given the criteria I list.
Dthrow CG
---------
Popo dthrows the opponent and grabs again afterwards.
This is the simplest CG the ICs have and the only one that doesn't require Nana. One of the main reasons I'm listing this CG here is that it is a very
reliable CG on Sheik that is inescapable for quite a while. It also works on some miscellaneous low tiers like Roy and is situationally useful on Fox/Falco.
It works on Falcon, too, although good reflexes are necessary here. Against Sheik/Roy/Falcon, you can simply react to their DI and grab again. If you want
to end the CG, fsmash is good when your opponent DI's up or doesn't DI, and wavedash -> dsmash is good when your opponent DI's away. Fox/Falco can escape it
by DI'ing away, but if you think they will input survival DI or no DI for whatever reason and if you're not in a position for the fsmash -> grab CG, dthrow
-> grab is a legitimate option.
*percentages*
Dthrow -> Dair (and variants)
-----------------------------
Popo dthrows, Nana dairs, and Popo grabs again.
This is the bread-and-butter ICs CG and it can be legitimately used against almost every character in the game. I didn't say exactly how Nana inputs the
dair in the initial description because there are two main variants: short hop dair and reverse dair (Nana full jumps or short hops behind the opponent and
dairs). Short hop dair often works very well on space animals and other characters that fall reasonably quickly. Fox/Falco can escape it by SDI'ing away,
but many people are bad or inconsistent at this. Also, since they DI away to escape it, you can sometimes get relatively early KOs by having Nana fsmash
instead of short hop dair. Most other characters can escape this by DI'ing upwards. However, you can still often use dthrow -> short hop dair on many
characters if you think they will DI away. For example, if you dthrow a Peach at high percentages and she DI's away in anticipation of a usmash, you can
short hop dair -> re-grab.
Reverse dair is an extremely useful tool against Falcon/Ganon, both of whom have a very difficult time escaping it. You can still frequently get away with
it on most other characters if you don't do it too often, and it also has the nice property of letting you turn around during a CG. This is especially
useful if you're near an edge that you're facing away from, as it allows you to turn around and start a handoff (more on that later).
Note that dair has damage-independent knockback, so either variant can work at any percentage.
The Handoff
-----------
When close to an edge that you're facing: Popo dthrow -> Nana fthrow (automatic) -> Popo grab.
The handoff is one of the most important CGs that the ICs have at their disposal. It has the distinction of being the only known inescapable* CG that works
on everybody in the game aside from wobbling. The timing varies by character and is often very precise, which can make learning it difficult, but I strongly
recommend learning how to do it on all of the common characters. One can also have Popo fthrow instead of dthrow, but this tends to make grabbing again
after Nana's fthrow more difficult. Note that the usual variation of the handoff terminates once you reach the edge, since Popo must move forward to grab
again after Nana's fthrow on almost all characters (exceptions are Ganon, Bowser, and DK, whom you can do a straightforward standing infinite on). There is
a variation that allows you to continue the handoff once you reach the edge, where you have Popo do a dash grab rather than a standing grab or JC grab.
However, this is generally very risky. Popo must do a dash grab while standing on the edge, which means that if you wait a tad bit too long before pressing
Z after initiating a dash, Popo will run off and fair. If you're doing the handoff at one of the outermost edges of the stage, it is likely that you will
die if this happens, but it's less risky if you're doing it elsewhere.
*If Nana decides to do a ton of headbutts before her fthrow, then your opponent can escape, but this is relatively uncommon.
Fsmash -> Grab
-------------
Popo grabs, Nana charges fsmash, Popo dthrows, Nana releases smash after dthrow finishes, Popo grabs again during fsmash hitlag.
This is an odd CG on space animals. It works if the opponent doesn't DI away, which most people are reluctant to do when they see Nana charge an fsmash.
This can be escaped at medium to high percentages with DI away, but doing so is very risky for the opponent, since you can always release the fsmash early
and potentially net an early KO. Note that in a lot of respects, this is very similar to dthrow -> short hop dair. Namely, the opponent can DI up to ensure
survival, but risks taking more damage should you decide to continue the CG, and should the opponent decide to DI away, s/he can escape, but will likely die
if you finish the CG then. The biggest differences between the two CGs are that this one is more intimidating than dthrow -> dair, but is also more
difficult and is easier to escape from. However, this CG is also relatively uncommon and will catch many people off-guard.
Wobbling
--------
[insert link to wobbling thread here]
Wobbling is almost always the best choice available when it is legal, since it is a totally inescapable and fairly easy CG that works on every character in
the game. The only times another option is better, at least in singles, are when the opponent is at a really low percentages, since s/he can button mush out
before the infinite begins in that case, and when Nana isn't in a good position to ftilt or dtilt, in which case you may want to use another CG to transition
into wobbling. For example, dthrow -> short hop dair and the handoff both lead into wobbling nicely.
edit: screw it, I'll just post the original thing even if it takes up a ton of space.
The Basic Grab Compendium
-------------------------
This is a collection of pragmatic information pertaining to the ICs' grabs. It should be noted that there are many esoteric options out of grabs that I haven't listed here; I have only listed chain grabs and finishers that I believe are useful reasonably often and not strictly inferior to other options.
disclaimers
-
I always assume grabs are JC grabs unless stated otherwise
-
Contents:
-Chain Grabs
--dthrow
--dthrow -> dair
--the handoff
--fsmash -> grab
--wobbling
Chain Grabs (CGs)
-----------------
I preface this section with a simple and general question that every ICs has thought about, ot at least should: "What makes a CG good?"
When I contemplate whether a CG is worth doing/learning, there are several main, interrelated traits I consider:
(1) How easily can my opponent escape this?
(2) How quickly does this CG rack up damage?
(3) How difficult is this to perform?
(4) What is the risk if I make an error?
(5) Are there are any other similar options I have that are safer or easier?
(1) is a question that is usually hard to difficult to answer concretely. For a number of reasons, it may be considerably easier from a technical perspective for one character to escape some CG than another character. At the same time, I consider what the cost to the opponent of trying to escape is. For example, in the case of the dthrow -> fsmash -> grab CG on space animals, it is relatively easy to escape by DI'ing away, but DI'ing away is very risky since they'll probably die if you release the fsmash early. The answer to (2) is always important in doubles and can be important in singles depending on how easy the CG is to escape and how difficult it is to perform. (4) is important for difficult CGs and CGs that take a while, and (5) is there to make sure I'm not wasting time learning something when I have another, better option that serves many of the same purposes.
Every chain grab I recommend here holds up well here given the criteria I list.
Dthrow CG
---------
Popo dthrows the opponent and grabs again afterwards.
This is the simplest CG the ICs have and the only one that doesn't require Nana. One of the main reasons I'm listing this CG here is that it is a very reliable CG on Sheik that is inescapable for quite a while. It also works on some miscellaneous low tiers like Roy and is situationally useful on Fox/Falco. It works on Falcon, too, although good reflexes are necessary here. Against Sheik/Roy/Falcon, you can simply react to their DI and grab again. If you want to end the CG, fsmash is good when your opponent DI's up or doesn't DI, and wavedash -> dsmash is good when your opponent DI's away. Fox/Falco can escape it by DI'ing away, but if you think they will input survival DI or no DI for whatever reason and if you're not in a position for the fsmash -> grab CG, dthrow -> grab is a legitimate option.
*percentages*
Dthrow -> Dair (and variants)
-----------------------------
Popo dthrows, Nana dairs, and Popo grabs again.
This is the bread-and-butter ICs CG and it can be legitimately used against almost every character in the game. I didn't say exactly how Nana inputs the dair in the initial description because there are two main variants: short hop dair and reverse dair (Nana full jumps or short hops behind the opponent and dairs). Short hop dair often works very well on space animals and other characters that fall reasonably quickly. Fox/Falco can escape it by SDI'ing away, but many people are bad or inconsistent at this. Also, since they DI away to escape it, you can sometimes get relatively early KOs by having Nana fsmash instead of short hop dair. Most other characters can escape this by DI'ing upwards. However, you can still often use dthrow -> short hop dair on many characters if you think they will DI away. For example, if you dthrow a Peach at high percentages and she DI's away in anticipation of a usmash, you can short hop dair -> re-grab.
Reverse dair is an extremely useful tool against Falcon/Ganon, both of whom have a very difficult time escaping it. You can still frequently get away with it on most other characters if you don't do it too often, and it also has the nice property of letting you turn around during a CG. This is especially useful if you're near an edge that you're facing away from, as it allows you to turn around and start a handoff (more on that later).
Note that dair has damage-independent knockback, so either variant can work at any percentage.
The Handoff
-----------
When close to an edge that you're facing: Popo dthrow -> Nana fthrow (automatic) -> Popo grab.
The handoff is one of the most important CGs that the ICs have at their disposal. It has the distinction of being the only known inescapable* CG that works on everybody in the game aside from wobbling. The timing varies by character and is often very precise, which can make learning it difficult, but I strongly recommend learning how to do it on all of the common characters. One can also have Popo fthrow instead of dthrow, but this tends to make grabbing again after Nana's fthrow more difficult. Note that the usual variation of the handoff terminates once you reach the edge, since Popo must move forward to grab again after Nana's fthrow on almost all characters (exceptions are Ganon, Bowser, and DK, whom you can do a straightforward standing infinite on). There is a variation that allows you to continue the handoff once you reach the edge, where you have Popo do a dash grab rather than a standing grab or JC grab. However, this is generally very risky. Popo must do a dash grab while standing on the edge, which means that if you wait a tad bit too long before pressing Z after initiating a dash, Popo will run off and fair. If you're doing the handoff at one of the outermost edges of the stage, it is likely that you will die if this happens, but it's less risky if you're doing it elsewhere.
*If Nana decides to do a ton of headbutts before her fthrow, then your opponent can escape, but this is relatively uncommon.
Fsmash -> Grab
-------------
Popo grabs, Nana charges fsmash, Popo dthrows, Nana releases smash after dthrow finishes, Popo grabs again during fsmash hitlag.
This is an odd CG on space animals. It works if the opponent doesn't DI away, which most people are reluctant to do when they see Nana charge an fsmash. This can be escaped at medium to high percentages with DI away, but doing so is very risky for the opponent, since you can always release the fsmash early and potentially net an early KO. Note that in a lot of respects, this is very similar to dthrow -> short hop dair. Namely, the opponent can DI up to ensure survival, but risks taking more damage should you decide to continue the CG, and should the opponent decide to DI away, s/he can escape, but will likely die if you finish the CG then. The biggest differences between the two CGs are that this one is more intimidating than dthrow -> dair, but is also more difficult and is easier to escape from. However, this CG is also relatively uncommon and will catch many people off-guard.
Wobbling
--------
[insert link to wobbling thread here]
Wobbling is almost always the best choice available when it is legal, since it is a totally inescapable and fairly easy CG that works on every character in the game. The only times another option is better, at least in singles, are when the opponent is at a really low percentages, since s/he can button mush out before the infinite begins in that case, and when Nana isn't in a good position to ftilt or dtilt, in which case you may want to use another CG to transition into wobbling. For example, dthrow -> short hop dair and the handoff both lead into wobbling nicely.
