In the event that the upcoming patch doesn't bring any significant changes.

[Nika]

Marth and Lucina are EXACTLY the same character. Optimal play for them is the exact same thing. In any situation as either character you would do the exact same thing. What ultimately makes Marth so superior to the Lucina is that there isn't a single situation where it would be more advantageous to be Lucina instead of Marth. Optimal play for the Falchions is exactly the same. Space your opponents out and force them into a ledge-guard situation. When one character has a tipper that increases his range and rewards for properly spacing, it's obvious which one is better.

This is just clearly not true. There are certainly situations where Lucina is better off than Marth. It's frustrating to see so many people make this claim.

The most obvious situation is: your opponent provides you a very small window to get a punish while you're standing inside tipper range. You don't have time to walk to tipper range. Lucina's punish is stronger than Marth's in this case, sometimes to the point where Lucina gets a kill and Marth doesn't.

This isn't just theory-crafting - it's a very common situation! Even if you're good at spacing, your opponent will be inside tipper range sometimes.

 

[Nah]

This is just clearly not true. There are certainly situations where Lucina is better off than Marth. It's frustrating to see so many people make this claim.

The most obvious situation is: your opponent provides you a very small window to get a punish while you're standing inside tipper range. You don't have time to walk to tipper range. Lucina's punish is stronger than Marth's in this case, sometimes to the point where Lucina gets a kill and Marth doesn't.

This isn't just theory-crafting - it's a very common situation! Even if you're good at spacing, your opponent will be inside tipper range sometimes.

It is kinda true though. And I do play Lucina so it's not like I don't know what the **** I'm talking about. He is right in that you want to play the 2 exactly the same way, and that Marth is rewarded much more for that playstyle than Lucina is. You just named ONE situation where Lucina does better than Marth, but Marth still does better in the majority of situations. It's still bad if you let the opponent get in what would be Marth's sourspot range on Lucina anyway. It's not like hitting the sourspot is always a bad thing for Marth either (0.7 hitlag modifier and it gives him a few combos iirc). And if they're that close to you you can grab them anyway, no need to swing Falchion.

 

[Nika]

But it's a fairly common, important situation.

The way I see it, Marth gets some kills that Lucina doesn't, and vice versa. I'll concede that Marth probably gets slightly more of them than Lucina, but the idea that Marth is strictly superior in every single situation is false.

Is Marth a better competitive character? At the highest levels, probably. But I think it's a slight advantage, and Lucina is perfectly competitively viable, even with the weird Shield Breaker nerf (why).

 

[Duet]

The first stage of grief is denial. One day you will understand, when you get tired of sitting there watching people survive your fsmashes at 120%, and people surviving your off stage fairs at 140+. Take into consideration all of the moves lucina can not kill with that can kill because of Marth's tipper, and all of the moves that he would not kill with if there is no tipper,that lucina.....still can't kill with. I mean, if you want to believe that Lucina is viable then more power to you, but Marth isn't even considered viable in his current form when he can get kills at 50% from a good read by most top players.

If you want an example of what I mean, Lucinas fair is so bad that it is slower than Sheiks, with no auto cancel window, has the same base knockback, yet less knockback growth, and can't combo for ****. Sheiks NERFED FAIR is a better kill move than Lucina's Fair which has been buffed.

Look at Ally, one of the best players in the world. He got bodied the last time he went Marth against someone that is around his skill level. I am friends with Mike Kirby and I have seen him beat Mr E who is infamous for being an amazing if not one of the best Marths in a grand finals set with his Kirby. Don't get me wrong, Mike is freaking amazing, but kirby has so many flaws it isn;t funny and he has to WORK harder than I have ever seen anyone work to get kills.

 

[Nah]

I never said that Lucina is bad, and I don't think she is bad and would place her in mid-tier (though what people consider to be good and bad varies), but you also can't really get around that she's essentially a downgraded Marth.

when you get tired of sitting there watching people survive your fsmashes at 120%

?
I'm pretty sure most characters should die to an Fsmash at ~120%-125%, center stage.....

If you want an example of what I mean, Lucinas fair is so bad that it is slower than Sheiks, with no auto cancel window, has the same base knockback, yet less knockback growth, and can't combo for ****. Sheiks NERFED FAIR is a better kill move than Lucina's Fair which has been buffed.

.....most people's Fairs pale into comparison to Sheik's godly Fair though. They may have been "nerfing" it, but they aren't nerfing what actually makes it good: the speed, the lack of endlag, the range (pretty sure the damn thing has a disjoint or her hand is intangible or some ****), etc.

Look at Ally, one of the best players in the world. He got bodied the last time he went Marth against someone that is around his skill level.

Ally has Marth as a secondary?

 

[Duet]

I was kind of just comparing the kill power. Obviously sheik's fair is really good, but Lucina's Fair has exactly the same base knock back, with even less knockback growth than a move that is basically designed for combos and not to kill, yet it can't combo. A clip I have saved and will be using for the project that was mentioned in the original post is me edge guarding a lucas with all of my aerials off stage when he was over 120% and not dying. He literally came back to the stage 4 times before I was able to kill him with an fsmash because he was bad and didn't know how to recover safely. Marth's fair on the other hand does have kill potential if you tipper, and more combo potential if you don't. Ftilt is in the same boat when you compare them across Marth and Lucina. Ftilt on Marth isn't going to kill if you don't tip, but if you do it will. Lucinas ftilt isn't going to kill, basically ever. The consistency of the blade just leaves Lucina in a crappy dead zone between the utility of marth's non tippered moves and the kill power of his tippered moves, so it becomes a game of poking away and resetting to neutral 6 or 7 times until you have enough damage wracked up to kill.

It is just the way things work, in concept they should even out, like people who are optimistic about Lucina want to think, but they simply don't. Sakurais design is flawed. The damage consistency isn't enough to warrant losing out on the tipper and utility that non tippered moves add if you know what you are doing. The only real situation you can argue it being better is up smash since that move is actually pretty decent when it comes to doing its job.

And yes Ally does have a Marth, it is basically the equivalent of Nairo's Robin/Lucina or Zeros Falcon. He only uses it for fun. The last time I think I saw him pull it out on stream though was back at Evo or one of the other big summer tournaments. He was playing against Mr R and switched after his Mario got JV 2'd. Needless to say, he basically got obliterated outside of a really early tipper kill he got. ALSO, this thread has deviated so far away from the original topic I don't even know how we got to this point anymore, but I guess it is the most active thing to have happened in months in here, so whatever.

 

[Rewrite]

But it's a fairly common, important situation.

The way I see it, Marth gets some kills that Lucina doesn't, and vice versa. I'll concede that Marth probably gets slightly more of them than Lucina, but the idea that Marth is strictly superior in every single situation is false.

Is Marth a better competitive character? At the highest levels, probably. But I think it's a slight advantage, and Lucina is perfectly competitively viable, even with the weird Shield Breaker nerf (why).

You are exactly the kind of person whom I was describing. You didn't take into any account here Marth's superior range, safer attacks (both tipper and non-tipper), better combo game, and better everything. Period. If you are in a position as Marth where you can punish but not tipper it is better to go for jabs or grabs to set-up follow-ups so that you can tipper. The Falchions have decent set-up options out of these and as Marth, if you are actually good at spacing, can get some pretty great rewards out of it.

There's also a lot of the really neat set-ups and combos Marth get's out of his un-tipped attacks. They also work longer than any of Lucina's because of the lower KBG on them. Marth's un-tipped falling up-air can combo into tipper forward smash for a range of about 30% against most characters, and starts killing in the middle of it at the edge. Without DI, Rosalina dies to this at 35% on Battlefield.

Also, baiting into tippers with jab 1 is super easy. Since tipper jab pops them up, ff they Di in you can time and space almost anything for a tipper and if they DI away they'll get out-spaced. Marth's tippered n-air functions as a pretty efficient kill move at around 90%. When un-tipped Marth's jab knocks them away a little bit and forces a tech chase scenario. Lucina's does too, but if you read your opponents tech option then you can space the tipper.

Marth has the tipper that helps him function in neutral, and when he isn't tipping he has strong set-up prowess that when combined with a read can end stocks. Apart from jab 1 set-ups, Lucina doesn't have these great set-up tools for KO-ing that Marth does. She can force tech-chases, but for properly reading she won't be rewarded as hard as Marth.

Not even when it comes to close range punishes can Lucina truly be called better. In what way is it advantageous to play this character competitively?

 

[Nika]

The first stage of grief is denial. One day you will understand, when you get tired of sitting there watching people survive your fsmashes at 120%, and people surviving your off stage fairs at 140+. Take into consideration all of the moves lucina can not kill with that can kill because of Marth's tipper, and all of the moves that he would not kill with if there is no tipper,that lucina.....still can't kill with. I mean, if you want to believe that Lucina is viable then more power to you, but Marth isn't even considered viable in his current form when he can get kills at 50% from a good read by most top players.

Depends what you mean by "viable", but I've been placing fairly well with her in NYC tournaments, where the average skill level is quite high and top players are some of the best in the world. I regularly get top 16, and got 9th/70 on Sunday (admittedly during Big House). And I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near Lucina's skill ceiling. So what does that say about her "viability"?

Nobody's surviving an fsmash at 120% - even Marth sourspots would kill at that point. I do envy Marth's offstage fairs though.

Look at Ally, one of the best players in the world. He got bodied the last time he went Marth against someone that is around his skill level. I am friends with Mike Kirby and I have seen him beat Mr E who is infamous for being an amazing if not one of the best Marths in a grand finals set with his Kirby. Don't get me wrong, Mike is freaking amazing, but kirby has so many flaws it isn;t funny and he has to WORK harder than I have ever seen anyone work to get kills.

I've played Mike Kirby several times. I actually consider it a good matchup for Marth/Lucina but Mike knows it VERY well and plays it almost perfectly, so it's no surprise that he could beat Mr. E. I also played Mr. E in friendlies (my Lucina vs. his Marth) and went pretty close to even - I actually 2-stocked him the first game. Granted, it's friendlies, but it should help show that Lucina has only a slight disadvantage compared to Marth.

I was kind of just comparing the kill power. Obviously sheik's fair is really good, but Lucina's Fair has exactly the same base knock back, with even less knockback growth than a move that is basically designed for combos and not to kill, yet it can't combo. A clip I have saved and will be using for the project that was mentioned in the original post is me edge guarding a lucas with all of my aerials off stage when he was over 120% and not dying. He literally came back to the stage 4 times before I was able to kill him with an fsmash because he was bad and didn't know how to recover safely. Marth's fair on the other hand does have kill potential if you tipper, and more combo potential if you don't. Ftilt is in the same boat when you compare them across Marth and Lucina. Ftilt on Marth isn't going to kill if you don't tip, but if you do it will. Lucinas ftilt isn't going to kill, basically ever. The consistency of the blade just leaves Lucina in a crappy dead zone between the utility of marth's non tippered moves and the kill power of his tippered moves, so it becomes a game of poking away and resetting to neutral 6 or 7 times until you have enough damage wracked up to kill.

It is just the way things work, in concept they should even out, like people who are optimistic about Lucina want to think, but they simply don't. Sakurais design is flawed. The damage consistency isn't enough to warrant losing out on the tipper and utility that non tippered moves add if you know what you are doing. The only real situation you can argue it being better is up smash since that move is actually pretty decent when it comes to doing its job.

Yeah I'm jealous of Marth's ftilt and fair, even more than fsmash - I consider those moves pretty much strictly superior, while Lucina's fsmash will kill when Marth's can't fairly often. I have killed with Lucina's ftilt (also utilt) but they have to be at quite high percent.

You are exactly the kind of person whom I was describing. You didn't take into any account here Marth's superior range, safer attacks (both tipper and non-tipper), better combo game, and better everything. Period. If you are in a position as Marth where you can punish but not tipper it is better to go for jabs or grabs to set-up follow-ups so that you can tipper. The Falchions have decent set-up options out of these and as Marth, if you are actually good at spacing, can get some pretty great rewards out of it.

There's also a lot of the really neat set-ups and combos Marth get's out of his un-tipped attacks. They also work longer than any of Lucina's because of the lower KBG on them. Marth's un-tipped falling up-air can combo into tipper forward smash for a range of about 30% against most characters, and starts killing in the middle of it at the edge. Without DI, Rosalina dies to this at 35% on Battlefield.

Also, baiting into tippers with jab 1 is super easy. Since tipper jab pops them up, ff they Di in you can time and space almost anything for a tipper and if they DI away they'll get out-spaced. Marth's tippered n-air functions as a pretty efficient kill move at around 90%. When un-tipped Marth's jab knocks them away a little bit and forces a tech chase scenario. Lucina's does too, but if you read your opponents tech option then you can space the tipper.

Marth has the tipper that helps him function in neutral, and when he isn't tipping he has strong set-up prowess that when combined with a read can end stocks. Apart from jab 1 set-ups, Lucina doesn't have these great set-up tools for KO-ing that Marth does. She can force tech-chases, but for properly reading she won't be rewarded as hard as Marth.

Not even when it comes to close range punishes can Lucina truly be called better. In what way is it advantageous to play this character competitively?

Okay, a few things. First, I literally said that Marth has "only a slight advantage". That's it. That's all I'm defending. I did not, and will not now, claim that Lucina is competitively advantageous compared to Marth. Just that she's not much worse, and she's viable if he is.

Second, I haven't really seen Marth's allegedly superior combo game bear out in actual play. When I play Marths we're basically just doing the same **** to each other - swiping away at max range or running in for DB/grabs (where tipper is irrelevant). Maybe that's because that's how the Lucina-Marth matchup goes, it might come up more against other characters. But since Marths are always trying to do optimal play with perfect spacing, it wouldn't really come up that often anyway right?

Third, with Lucina, jab1-fsmash only works against bad players. Any good player will DI away and jump out of range if I wait long enough to bring out fsmash. Can Marth regularly get tippered fsmashes against good players out of jab1? That would be a major advantage for sure. But if it only works against bad players, who cares.

Finally, my understanding of the range difference is that it's negligible, basically just a couple pixels. Sure, it's nice, but not more than a slight advantage.

For the record - I have no particular attachment to Lucina as a character outside of Smash. I started maining her before I played Awakening, and she didn't really stick out that much to me in FE anyway. I've tried switching to Marth several times, and I always find him kind of annoying and uncomfortable to play. So I prefer Lucina because she feels better and more fun to me in Smash. If she were so bad that I couldn't compete successfully with her, I would probably stop competing or switch mains. But that hasn't been my experience.

 

[Rewrite]

It's a bit more than a slight advantage guy. The range difference is more than a couple pixels. There's the safer untipped attacks because of no hit-lag modifier and the safer tippers because of more shield stun (even more now because shieldstun increase), the better combo game, the better set-ups.

In regards to jab I gave examples of set-ups, not combos. They require reading to a certain degree, but if you know where your opponent is going then you can space the tips. The really good Marth's will use tech like perfect pivots to space the tippers for punishing, setting up traps and combos, and tech chases as well.

In regards to f-smash, it's pretty good if you can land it but it won;t be the majority of Marth or Lucina's kills. The first hitbox comes out on frame 10 above your head and finally strikes in front of you by frame 14. It's a hard reading tool. A lot of the Falchion's kills will come from edge-guards and gimps. In Marth's case he has the benefit of the tipper which is super easy to space on aerials and tilts. With the buffed recoveries as well, the tipper is a fantastic asset and a lot of his tipped aerials will take stocks at around mid percents if you can swipe their second jump.

You mention that Marth feels uncomfortable to you and that Lucina is just more fun, but in all honesty I can't see what exactly makes her more fun to you. You didn't really go into why personally, but from a purely competitive standpoint, I genuinely don't understate why people whom have no attachment to Lucina would play her over Marth. I don't understand why when two characters have the same movement, mostly the same hitboxing, and frame data, that you wouldn't pick one less suited to that kit's optimal playstyle.

I love Marth. He's a pretty chill guy. Wears a tiara. Fought a war. Fought several wars actually. Unfortunately he's kind of **** in this game. I'm not gonna lie to myself and say "Oh man, Marth is so good. Skilled Marth can beat any Sheik." It's- No. It's not happening. He's pretty disadvantaged.

In this case, it's probably just a personal preference so I can't argue against it. If you're playing Lucina because you genuinely prefer playing Lucina then that's all that really matters. I feel like it sort of demeans the character when people are clearly trying to overrate her and suggest that competitively she might be a good alternative to Marth. I say he's legitimately better in every way, but in the end that's not saying much when he's already low to begin with.

I know I said earlier that i was just going to leave the delusional to their fantasies, but I felt you came at it in a way that was far more intelligent than the others (you actually put effort into refuting my points). A lot of people don;t play Sheik simply because she's the best. She has a play-style that doesn't fit everyone so naturally people gravitate towards the other characters as well, but with Marth and Lucina it's obvious which one is better. There are no Match-ups where Lucina outperforms Marth.

In the end you can play whomever you want. I won't necessarily think that you're making a good choice for competitive play, but I will respect that it's your choice and I'm not trying to take that away from anyone.

 

[Locuan]

The Marcina difference discussion has happened many times before so repeating said topic many times over won't get us anywhere. We have the resources discussing this readily available as well. A thread is stickied at the top of this character board describing their differences. Additionally, there are frame data threads for both characters that anyone can use to see their differences from the programming side of things. This thread has been derailed from it's original purpose though, let's put it back on track. On another note, there has been some indirect flaming from some individuals in these thread as well. Do not do so again, this is the final warning on that.

 

[Nika]

Wasn't the original point of the thread to show that Lucina is trash? I felt like defending her was relevant. Like Rewrite said, I think I have a somewhat new perspective on the argument. It feels like the Lucina mains just roll over whenever the Marths come in and **** on her.

In any case, I'll make a new topic to say why I prefer her over Marth.

 

[Locuan]

Wasn't the original point of the thread to show that Lucina is trash?

This is what Duet said:

With that being said, I am looking for some people to look past their character pride and give replays/footage/feedback on the issues Lucina faces that causes her to be widely considered as one of the worst characters in the game.

As you can see, the purpose is to get footage of Lucina's weaknesses. That's actually a great idea from Duet . From there we can note what those are and try to find ways to work around those weaknesses.

In any case, I'll make a new topic to say why I prefer her over Marth.

If you'd like to do that, make your post on the social thread.

 

[Nika]

I would prefer to make a topic so that people checking the boards might actually see it and some caster somewhere will be like "I saw an interesting discussion of this on Smashboards" when the other guy asks why you'd pick Lucina. I'd also like it to start a discussion. Do we really have our tails so far between our legs that we have to hide this sort of thing in the social thread?

 

[Buffoon]

I was fighting my buddy's Fox today, and I've come to realize how horrid Falchions' landing and recovery lag are for almost all of their moves. I had to be on point just to punish Fox's whiffs since he recovers so quickly from many of his moves. In comparison, when I whiffed a move, 90% of the time I was punished because of Falchion's commitment to their moves.

And that not counting how many times I was punished for using Dancing Blade and parts of the combinations flat out miss when he didn't get an opportunity to block a finisher.

When you get tired of sitting there watching people survive your fsmashes at 120%

 

[Duet]

That looked like absolutely abysmal DI, but DI probably wouldn't have saved him. Marth and Lucina are both really freaking light for their size. They are even lighter than diddy kong, like bottom 15 light.

Obviously though, not everyone is going to be living as high as my example and it was kind of extreme, and it is dependant on the situation, but I do have some footage of some of the heavier characters surviving my Fsmash at 130% from around center stage. I am not talking like bowser and DK either, I am talking like Ryu, Yoshi and CF even down to mario. heaviness levels, so within the top 20 for weight.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't a terrible move by any means, it just has subpar knockback growth compared to pretty much every other f smash in the game, with higher base knock back. It can basically net you early fsmash kills at the edge because of the base knockback, but it 's effectiveness decreases at higher percents in comparison to most other fsmashes in the game which start out with lower base knockback with like 20% more growth. The closest move I could even find similar knockback for bk and kbg on it was Marth's untippered fsmash, which only has 10 less base knock back and the same amount of growth.

 

[Alice Margatroid]

I don't run into situations that make me want to throw my controller due to a bad trade or being straight outprioritized on a ridiculous level. With Lucina it happens on a daily basis.

As someone who plays both Marth and Lucina extensively, this right here is literally the most frustrating part about the two. Dancing blade messing up is a close second however.

 

[Buffoon]

As someone who plays both Marth and Lucina extensively, this right here is literally the most frustrating part about the two. Dancing blade messing up is a close second however.

What's even more infuriating is that Roy's Dancing Blade variations seem to connect much better than Falchions' Dancing Blade.