In Depth Movepool Analysis

[cisyphus]

Right now this is just notes I'm taking to get my consciousness clear, but the more we as a community can add the better, yeah?

Snake Moveset overview:

Jab Combo:
- First active frame is 3
- The third hitbox is at least frame 21 (frame 6 jab 2 input + frame 7 jab 3 input + frame 8 hitbox)
- Jab cancel on the first hit is easy and good for getting grab mixups
- -9 on shield, so don’t use it to shield pressure or link into anything else. You will get shield grabbed.
- The kick hitbox is somewhat strong and might be good for setting up an edgeguard.
Overall the jab combo isn’t especially useful. Use it to quickly interrupt something, but that’s about all.

F-tilt Combo:
- The first hit is set knockback, which makes it a fantastic combo starter in some matchups (Refer to the F-tilt combo guide below).

can combo into a C4 against the 10 floatiest characters, making the puff, Zelda, and Peach matchups far easier.
can combo into grab against the 16 floatiest characters, making it a great grab combo starter.
can u-tilt against the 24 floatiest characters, making it a great way to set up an early C4 KO.
It also, of course, links into its second hit, which is another semi-solid edgeguard starter.​

- More importantly, it sends opponents into tumble, which means a tech chase.

A No tech can be quickly punished with a jab reset, which then leads into anything you want, including a C4 stick, a launcher, a grab, or another f-tilt!
A tech in place similarly falls prey to these but it tougher to react to.
A tech roll can be followed up with DACUS or a tranquilizer read, as well as a boost grab vs. shorter/slower rolls.​

The f-tilt can be crouch cancelled at any percent! This is because it has set knockback. Don't use it haphazardly.

Up tilt:
- A fast (frame 5) and powerful launcher.
- Its first hitbox is minutely higher than the jab hitbox, so use it where you would a jab for great success.
- The hitbox then lingers above Snake for three frames and can hit through some platforms (see platform guide)
- U-tilt connects with anything that grab would, which includes f-tilt, jab, dair, and nair. Use it to set up for a C4 ko (it KOs ~50% earlier than C4 alone and is the most useful and second strongest launcher in Snake's arsenal)
U-tilt will not hit low-lying opponents such as sleeping Fox or crouching Jigglypuff. Be smart.

Down tilt: - Possibly Snake's greatest ranged option on the ground outside of DACUS.
- Acceptable speed at 8 frames
- Great at launching floaty characters at mid percents and fast fallers at high percents
- Snake's hurtbox rises noticably during the animation, and thus can be grabbed by all characters despite its low hurtbox.
- Its usefulness as an edgeguard tool is commendable, given its ability to set up for fair spikes.
- It can KO with C4 around 20% higher than u-tilt as well, making it good for tranq and missed tech punishes (which u-tilt tends to miss)
D-tilt is extremely susceptible to crouch cancelling.

Crouch tilt:
- Slightly further range than down-tilt, although it's far more situational.
- Active on the sixth frame
- Much less useful as a launcher.
- It does, however, combo well into grab at lower percents and u-tilt at higher percents.
- It keeps Snake lower to the ground and probably prevents grabs [testing needed]
- It's a nuanced way of punishing projectile-heavy characters like Samus and Falco which reliably links into a grab.
Jump cancel the grab to have more consistent results.

Dash Attack:
- A relatively quick (6 frame) attack that covers a lot of space quickly, but overall it's really unsafe.
- Its greatest usefulness is probably being cancelled into Up Smash with DACUS.
- It can however cause some mind games given its ability to put Snake into a crouch approach very quickly. Certain characters cannot grab Snake while he is crouching (List in the KO% guide) and thus, this is a decent mixup.
- Additional use gained in tech chase situations versus characters with long tech rolls.
Dash Attack is best used sparingly. It has a decent launch trajectory, but is hard to follow up on. It's telegraphed and easy to punish, whereas DACUS covers a lot of grabs.

DACUS:
- Slower than dash attack with less active frames
- MUCH SAFER because of the mortar and the reduced distance traveled, allowing for better spacing.
This is a powerful approach option that should be used often

Up Smash:
- Primarily, it's great because of DACUS, but the vanilla Up Smash has some use of its own.
- The mortar can be charged to travel higher
- The mortar can be tilted to travel left or right
- The two of these together allow for a diverse range that covers roughly half of Final Destination's length.
- The base will hit for 6%, whereas the Mortar will do 14%.
- The delay between these two prevents a lot of follow ups from opponents (most importantly, grabs) and is a decent bait.
- The long charge time can be used just as an opponent returns with invincibility and allows for trap-setting scenarios, either forcing them to waste their invincibility or getting hit by the mortar and comboed.
- The flexibility of the mortar hitbox makes it a unique edgeguarding tool if properly mastered.
It's long start up (11 frames) prevents much usefulness in neutral.

Forward Smash:
- A three hit combo where the first hit is akin to a jab, whereas the second hit is semi-strong and the third hit has KO potential.
- Mixing up these hits can allow for a cheeky KO on folks only expecting the two-hit combo.
- The Forward Smash only hits in front of Snake as of 3.5 (not above him), meaning it's lost a lot of usefulness.
- Mostly outshined by other options in Snake's movepool.
Anybody that's played Snake before will likely not fall for this very often.

Down Smash:
- AKA Your Best Friend
- Down Smash provides so much for Snake:

Limits movement options of the opponent, who tend to be more mobile than Snake
This allows Snake to force opponents in close, where he can grab them to death.
Provides a strong upward KO option (averages at about 110%)
Can be used in Edgeguarding to cover options indirectly
Can be used in techchases to cover options indirectly
Can force a waste of invincibility and set up traps
Can be comboed into with any throw
Can be used as a launcher for a C4 KO.​

You should ALWAYS have a Mine active whenever you're playing. The second neutral is restored, (safely) plant one!

 

[NQuad1Zero]

On the comment about safely planting a mine whenever neutral is restored: I find that when I verse projectile spammers whose projectiles apply hitstun on you in place (Filthy Mario, Falco, Link etc), its super unsafe to even consider planting a mine (Their stray projectiles hit you under your planted mine before you roll out or however you get out, and you take the mine hit) unless they're above you or they're offstage, which then usually you either want to be setting up the field or continue to apply pressure to them, and the latter option tends to be more rewarding... (?)

 

[BND]

Was saving writing my analysis until after a few details about crouch had been tested, but adding what I know about Snake’s moveset that wasn’t previously listed (Partially did aerials and specials, until I realized that I was slowly starting to half-ass them, so left those out):

Jab: There’s no reason to use jab 2, since it’s earliest IASA frame is later than jab 1’s by a good margin and will likely be negative on hit unless the opponent’s airborne at a certain height, in which case it will be marginally positive/neutral on hit factoring the opponent's landlag. If you jab 2 by accident, might as well jab 3 too.

Ftilt: Apparently I tested this wrong; thought crouching forced a knockdown after ftilt, but apparently it's more of if you spotdodge and get hit with an ftilt during the endlag, you get knocked down. Given that it was tested with a spotdodge, I'm guessing it's untechable in this situation, so I'm guessing that waveland -> ftilt may be a good mixup option with a sticky attempt if the opponent lands on a platform above you. (Also, as mentioned earlier, may be a good way to punish dodges in general, but I haven't tested this yet)
NOTE: This is also frame 4, making ftilt Snake's fastest tilt.

Utilt: Good KO move, but can be ducked under. Not a good combo starter/continuation unless at lower percents and against fastfallers.

Dtilt: Snake’s go-to-non-grenade move in neutral for most matchups, especially for those who can’t DACUS, given that it’s his longest reaching non-laggy grounded move. Can be CC’d, but fast enough and does good enough damage to trade. A good combo starter: links fairly well into grab at lower percents, and at higher percents can lead into a spike.

Crawl attack: I don’t use crawl attack, since from how I see it, it’s a somewhat risky (given the range), low reward dtilt. Dtilt’s a better option at sub 100% percents due to higher hitstun/knockback scaling, without too much knockback. Therefore, grabbing after a crouch tilt isn’t recommended; the snake should probably abuse the opponent’s landing lag and go for a utilt, or if applicable, an ftilt, so that a ftilt 2nd hit/utilt mixup is possible. As mentioned above, the main advantage of crawl attack is that it has a good hitstun-knockback ratio at high percents, and it doesn't move Snake's hitbox up like dtilt.

((!) Still need to test this (current tests are coming out negative, but I’m using Dolphin so my control options are limited/this still needs more testing), but if it’s possible to do crawl attack from a standing position, this could be Snake’s next Cypher-tier shield pressure tool. Snake definitely ducks under Sheik’s grab, and crawl attack is also ungrabbable by Sheik.)

Dash attack: Not sure what to say here. Most people dash attack because they’re failed DACUSes, but like all dash attacks, great if you want to cover an option fast and are willing to take the risk of having it shielded. Launches at an acceptable spike attempt trajectory. Also good if you’re confident your opponent can’t react out of a dash dance, but that’s a different story.

Forward smash: Great at the edge if spaced right and your opponent’s up and shielding (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_Er1fi_Llc#t=39), since it usually pushes people off for a kill (which didn’t happen, but you get the point). Otherwise, not much use; often a misinputted ftilt or a good move to give yourself time to think that you can john about, since it’s laggy. (Basically a subpar move, but has its uses). Stopped using it after 3.0, which gave fsmash a really good vertical hitbox and cool sound effects/hitlag. It definitely doesn’t look cool anymore, and not sure if the vertical hitbox of the third hit is still there, but fsmash’s a big commitment anyways.

Down smash: Unlike cisyphus’s post up there, I’d say that Dsmash usage depends on who you’re playing against, how you’re playing, and what percentages you’re at. If your opponent’s at a high percent and you’re at a low one (or even a high one, actually), there’s no reason not to put it down barring pressure from your opponent. Otherwise, if your opponent’s at a low percent, it’s not the best idea to put one down unless you have their character’s combo weight down, you know they’re going to waste their invincibility on it, or if they’re not well versed against Snake. Snake has many mine-independent combo options, and usually usage of a mine in a combo ends it, since Snake’s best mine usage options are his heel spike forward air (which won’t happen since you’re at low percents) or a throw into your mine. That’s a waste of a grab, IMO. On the other hand, your opponent (against Marth especially) may have good (and fast) horizontal juggling capabilities, which Snake doesn’t have, meaning that they can actually use your mine in a combo. Be wary while putting this down; depending on who I’m playing, I regret it up to 8 times out of 10.

Up smash: Delayed bullet. Unless you’re up smashing into a forward smash charging Marth, it’s usually a “if you hit me you’ll get hit too”. Also not a bad idea to charge it while you’re waiting for your opponent to come off of the respawn platform, since you guarantee a small region of space for yourself. Has better reach than utilt, and in some matchups (supposedly the spacies), combos into forward air.

EDIT: Filling in info for specials/aerials:
Grenade: Several uses, the most prominent one being coming down from a juggle. If you have frame perfect reactions, if you’re given the 8 frame window to actually pull out a grenade, you can guarantee that your opponent will hit the grenade and get you out of the juggle they started, or miss entirely (barring some stupidly massive hitbox or perfect aerial/ground mobility) by mixing up between a B-reversed grenade or a standard grenade pull, preferrably as late as possible to raise the chance of a total miss. In both cases, you should face away from your opponent for the grenade to be closer. Of course, since you don’t have perfect reactions, you’ll have to guess.

Other uses mainly revolve around getting an advantage in neutral, or starting a combo with it after your opponent hits your grenade, presumably with you shielding. This is also a better option for a star KO than up smash mortar is, since it’s faster and has higher knockback scaling. There’s also the niche aerial glide toss for style points (and aerial grenade pickup: jump -> throw grenade up -> jump cancel -> z pickup), or the somewhat more useful instant grenade toss. Regardless, you have roughly 78 frames to do whatever you want with your grenade, so be creative.

Tranq: The best options for usage are usually after a forward air (if you know your opponent’s going to tech in some direction), a jab reset, or just after an ftilt in general. The reason jab reset -> tranq is generally superior is because if your opponent techs behind you, you’ve wasted a tranq dart, you’re still in shooting lag, and you’d be forced into shield. Meanwhile, jabs are fast and you can do them as many times you want. However, tranq after ftilt isn’t a bad idea, since it covers 2 options: no-tech, and tech away, on most characters (Against Fox, this actually covers tech in place and tech away; no-tech is separately covered by jab reset)

Also viable (though not recommended) for usage if your opponent’s about to land, regardless of how close to you they are. If they’re trying to use an aerial on you, it’ll probably interrupt the aerial, and they’ll probably be confused for a few moments, during which you can do whatever you want (Player psychology suggests that they’d shield, so huzzah; free 1-time grab). If they’re far away, 1 damage for you, and if you’re lucky and you catch them during landing lag, a free punish. Again, not recommended.

You have 3 tranqs before you need to reload; be sure to count them, and reload after every kill/when you get free time with side B + shield within 6 frames. If your opponent’s projectileless, you’re a good distance away from them, and there’s a mine between you and your opponent, you can bait your opponent by reloading your tranq. Optimally you should be spaced just far away enough that you can shield/spotdodge/pull a grenade/ftilt/jab before they come over to your side of the stage.

EDIT3: On second thought, against most characters at least, (It really depends on how far up the characters bounce as well as their tech speed and size; I'd suspect Bowser has a huge window, while Sheik's fast techroll and minimal hitbox means that you only have a few frames at best to make the input, and Zelda isn't tranq-able unless the tranq input is done 3 frames before she hits the ground, and the earliest a tranq input can be done to punish a standard tech is 2 frames before she hits the ground. Meanwhile, on characters who hit the ground before Snake's ftilt, this is impossible without a non-ftilt knockdown), there's a certain window in which you can shoot a tranq and have it cover all three non-roll-behind options after an ftilt, with the mostly-guaranteed frames to shoot on being the exact frames on which they hit the ground. If you want to do the math yourself, a no-tech gives you 25+ frames to punish, but tranqs can't hit certain characters too far into their bounce, meaning that doing it as early as possible is . A tech must be punished between frames 20-26 or so, and I'm not sure what tech-away entails but it definitely works on characters like Sheik, Mewtwo, and Luigi (if the latter two choose to tech). Meanwhile, the tranq dart hitbox comes out on frame 19.
Of course, other attacks work; it doesn't need to be an ftilt.

C4: I shouldn’t have to explain this, but Snake’s main usage of C4 in PM is sticking his opponent after a combo. Under certain conditions, Snake actually has enough frame advantage to stick his opponent and still remain positive after the sticking animation. If he doesn’t , make sure you’re at low percent, your opponent has aerial options, or you’re sufficiently well-versed in wavebounce C4 (Forward (to go towards your opponent) -> down-back + B (for the turnaround C4) -> forward (for the wavebounce) -> back (or down-back) (for the momentum). It’s only 3 button taps, 2 of which have to be done within 3-4 framesish, but it’s more trouble than it sounds. Invest a lot of time into wavebounce C4, or none at all.

Of particular note, a somewhat effective way to stick opponents is after they get up. Be aware that they can spotdodge this if they’re not in any sort of lag: spotdodge has 1 frame of vulnerability, while C4 needs 3 frames of vulnerability to stick anybody. To cover for this weakness, alternating between this and down aerial is recommended against opponents on a platform (see the down aerial section)

It’s other use is as an edgeguarding tool. Still trying to develop and see if certain uses for it are viable, but generally you put the C4 at the lip of the stage and a mine right behind it, while you hang onto the ledge, back air if appropriate, and hope they use a recovery move with a lot of landing lag that barely reaches the stage so that the mine blows up, you can C4 them, or even both if you’re precise enough.

It’s niche use, ironically, is for actual stage control. C4’s a lot better on your opponent than on the ground (unless they’re Zelda/Sheik or something and ledgestall transform or something silly to drop the C4—does that even work?), so work on sticking.

Cypher: No longer the best grounded move in the game, given that it takes 5 frames for a hitbox to come out and you might as well mix up between an ftilt (if you think they’re going to try to shieldgrab), grab (if you think they’re going to try shielding your ftilt), or spotdodge/jab (if you think ftilt isn’t going to be fast enough) but still not a bad idea. On shield, against people with bad OoS options, C4’s a popular followup. This can be used as an alternative to up air before C4; just make sure the actual cypher doesn’t hit the opponent (I.E. don’t let go too soon).

Forward aerial: Your best option off of an up throw if they’re too high for chaingrabbing, you’ve already stuck them, and they’ve DI’d forwards and you’re not on the ground. Opens up opportunities for tech chasing. Unless you’re going for flashiness or you desperately need a kill, back air’s usually recommended for edgeguarding. Also not a terrible (definitely not the best, especially if your opponent has projectiles) option for approaching if you space it right.

Back aerial: Apparently this has less range than dtilt, but it’s still a usable spacing tool, especially when coming down. My favorite followup to a whiffed/zoning/etc. back air is a ftilt, since it’s easier to do and has higher reward than a turnaround jab if landed as a surprise (as ftilts are meant to be landed as), more often than not it’s fast enough to catch people trying to charge in for an attack/grab on a whiffed back air, and if it’s shielded or misses you always have the mixup of ftilt’s second hit, but this is just a suggestion. Also provides a semi-mixup when ledgehopping an aerial, since the hitbox direction can go either way, and there’s the more obvious ledgehop of a forward air.

Up aerial: Most uses of this are right before a C4 for a kill. It could potentially be used as a juggling tool, but that’s a bit hard to manage with Snake’s aerial mobility. Also has a niche use in the Snake flash, and is Snake’s most positive-on-block aerial, so it’s definitely useful, but otherwise there aren’t really any notable uses for it.

Down aerial: Funny move, and sometimes effective too, but hard to control, and reward varies heavily depending on opponent. Down aerial gives you a pretty generous window for comboing (On grounded opponents, if you get the L-cancel down, it can even combo into itself in arbitrary ways! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCW1UtfbEx4 only shows down aerial jab resetting, but you get the point, sorta)) but it’s susceptible to SDI, especially given Snake’s bad aerial mobility. Fortunately, you can miss a hit between stomps and still have it combo. Note that the hitboxes slant towards the direction Snake’s facing, so if it’s hitting, make sure to DI forward a bit. Harder to use at higher percentages, since the first 3 hits don’t actually have fixed knockback and start knocking up after a while.

If your opponent isn’t into shield DI, this move has enough pushback to push opponents off of platforms, making this an excellent alternative to C4 after your opponent lands on a platform above you

Neutral aerial: Now one of snake’s less useful moves, since the usual followup to this was starting a blockstring with Cypher given its 4 frame invincible startup. Often used as a longer-range, close-to-the-ground down air alternative. The 3rd kick is generally not used, and most people try to link it into a grab. Limited potential on shield, as it doesn't have a particularly amazing frame advantage (and it's somewhat difficult to get that frame advantage anyways IMO).

 

[cisyphus]

Great contributions, definitely, I missed how fast f-tilt was! As for the downsmash comments:

NQuad: The emphasis is "safely" of course: if your opponent is capable of hitting you while you're planting a mine, that's unsafe—isn't it? And of course comboing takes priority over this (which extends to juggling) but should you have had a mine planted prior, that eliminates some of their retreat options and dually punishes them if they don't keep it in mind. It also forces bad DI in situations like those. There are benefits even there. Mines can perform that same function in edgeguards as well, so knocking them off stage is a great way of gaining time to plant a mine.

BND: The way I see it, the mine gains value when facing against experienced players because they're more conscious of it. That consciousness allows a certain fear to set in, which turns control over to the Snake. Yes, you run the risk of getting comboed into it, but this can be mitigated somewhat by good DI and proper consciousness as well as proper spacing and zoning. Don't allow yourself to be placed directly between your opponent and the mine: that's not how to use them to begin with. The mine effectively creates an off limits zone due to the fear of getting hit and/or comboed, and this goes for both players; however, a Snake player with intimate knowledge of his mine's hitboxes will be better equipped to deal with them. The other
off limits zone should effectively be Snake's grab range, so you should force those two scary things onto your opponent simultaneously! Running into a mine is a sign of inexperience on your part, and getting comboed into a mine is a sign of inexperience on your part; the first is a lack of knowledge and the second is a lack of theory. Moreover, the Mine isn't really a combo tool (although it can be in fastfaller matchups): it's your finisher, considering it has the strongest vertical knockback of any move. That only makes sense. The only exception to that conception is the C4, which is solely because of its versatility. All that said, yes, you need to be extremely wise about your mine placements and understand the nuances of the matchup at hand, but a constant looming threat is rarely a bad thing.

I'm gonna edit in the specials and aerials now.