Immediate Grab Release

[NisforSmash]

Currently the only way to beat a grab in PM is to spot-dodge. In other fighting games the way to beat a dodge is to "grab break" by inputting light punch or grab as soon as you're being grabbed. Seeing as how this is a game about options, i have a proposal to make.

Give all the characters in the game another option by allowing them to cancel a grab in its early stages by pressing Z. Doing so would result in an immediate grab release animation which would push both characters away from each other.

Why? 1. As it stands, shield grabbing is still very reliable. Implementing this would immediately make shield grabbing less of a problem when predicted. 2. Characters with pseudo chain grabs such as Marth, Snake and Dedede would now be unable to easily hassle their opponents by repeatedly grabbing them.

But spot-dodging works just fine! Yes this is true but spot-dodging is a cure-all in smash. It can be used for both attacks and grabs which makes it easier to predict since technically it's your only defense against an impending grab. I would venture as far as saying spot dodging is an unhealthy mechanic for the grab game as it is standing on it's own. With an immediate grab release, every character is given an option specifically catered to dealing with grabbing. Spot-dodging should be more of a defensive mix-up rather than a go to defensive option similar to how rolling is a defensive mix-up that can be used in place of wave dashing.

The point in adding this mechanic is to provide character with another way around grabbing which seems to be an easy solution when someone is trapped in their shield. Once grabbed it's too late to spot-dodge but not for an immediate grab release. If you have the reflexes or predicted it just as it happened and press Z, i see no reason as to why the grab can't be immediately broken. Sure smash favors offense slightly but i shouldn't feel limited when i play defensively and currently when on defense i feel somewhat limited. Part of it is due to projectiles and the way perfect shielding works but I'll post on that later.

 

[DrinkingFood]

No

 

[NisforSmash]

No

¿Por Que No?

 

[Phan7om]

You can already do this by mashing the buttons very fast.

And also, on your little part about shield-grabbing, spacing is a very important part about smash and all I would see this doing is allowing people do mindlessly space improperly on shield knowing that they could just press Z and get away with it.

 

[NisforSmash]

You can already do this by mashing the buttons very fast.

How many inputs would it take? Can i get a video of this happening in an actual tournament match?

 

[Phan7om]

How many inputs would it take? Can i get a video of this happening in an actual tournament match?

Well I mean, they could still insta throw you but its possible to get out of one if they dont. As for the inputs idk, a lot... its still possible tho.

 

[NisforSmash]

Well I mean, they could still insta throw you but its possible to get out of one if they dont. As for the inputs idk, a lot... its still possible tho.

That's what i'm saying. I feel like trying to time a button press is much more reliable and practical then trying to mash out. If you miss the one time input then it would be akin to missing a perfect shield. Plus mashing could lead to an unintended input. I know i'm not the only user that has the feeling that mashing doesn't really belong as a universal mechanic. Maybe perhaps as a character specific thing ala mario and luigi tornado recovery but otherwise i don't see it as being that healthy. Timed inputs are more skill reliant than mindless mashing.

 

[Phan7om]

That's what i'm saying. I feel like trying to time a button press is much more reliable and practical then trying to mash out. If you miss the one time input then it would be akin to missing a perfect shield. Plus mashing could lead to an unintended input. I know i'm not the only user that has the feeling that mashing doesn't really belong as a universal mechanic. Maybe perhaps as a character specific thing ala mario and luigi tornado recovery but otherwise i don't see it as being that healthy. Timed inputs are more skill reliant than mindless mashing.

But couldnt one just "mindlessly mash" Z and never get grabbed then?

 

[standardtoaster]

only thing like this i would be ok with would be forcing both characters into a grab break if they grab each other on the same frame. currently the grabber in that situation is determined randomly

 

[NisforSmash]

But couldnt one just "mindlessly mash" Z and never get grabbed then?

Of course it could be tweaked so that it's more on the order of L canceling so that mashing might perhaps get it done but it's more efficient if you'd just time it correctly via practice.

only thing like this i would be ok with would be forcing both characters into a grab break if they grab each other on the same frame. currently the grabber in that situation is determined randomly

I thought port priority was used to determine who gets the grab if it occurs on the same frame? In any case that would be cool as well since it's not a thing already.

 

[NeoZ]

only thing like this i would be ok with would be forcing both characters into a grab break if they grab each other on the same frame. currently the grabber in that situation is determined randomly

Definitely.

 

[Phan7om]

Toaster's idea is fine, if both players could equally grab on the same frame the design change could be a great idea, but the way you explained it has its flaws.

First, it would get rid of all chaingrabs, like you mentioned, and to my knowledge no one has a problem with Marth cgs on FD, but more of a problem with really punishing CGs like Pits or Snakes. Chaingrabs in general should just be made more like Marth's which is a balance issue not a design change that every character should be affected by.

Second, idk how many frames your talking about in you're early stages, and by perfect sheild do you mean perfect sheild or powersheild since they're different. Its relatively easy to powersheild something that you know is going to hit you with a little practice, and for grabs I would say half the time you get grabbed you knew you were going to get grabbed so if someone got really good at pressing Z grabs would become unviable. Making grab heavy characters like Puff, DK, ICs, etc. drop super low in viablility. "But they could just buff them right?" yeah they could, but then against a person who couldnt press Z correctly/didnt know how would just get dominated by that character regardless of skill level which isnt a good design choice.

Third, it takes away the importance of spacing. Unless you're fighting someone like Bowser, Samus, Snake, etc with a good up-b oos, or someone with a fast oos option like Sheik's nair or Fox's Shine/Upsmash(really only at kill %s) most of the time you misspace something unsafe on people's sheilds your getting grabbed. And that takes away a lot of options on characters with no other way to deal with poor spacing by getting rid of the grab option since you could lcancel and snap out of grabs with Z.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

How many inputs would it take? Can i get a video of this happening in an actual tournament match?

>mashing
>what inputs???
-facepalm

 

[Phaiyte]

If shield grabbing is reliable against or for you, then that means either you or your opponent has some incredibly bad positioning and spacing problems.

 

[NisforSmash]

Toaster's idea is fine, if both players could equally grab on the same frame the design change could be a great idea, but the way you explained it has its flaws.

First, it would get rid of all chaingrabs, like you mentioned, and to my knowledge no one has a problem with Marth cgs on FD, but more of a problem with really punishing CGs like Pits or Snakes. Chaingrabs in general should just be made more like Marth's which is a balance issue not a design change that every character should be affected by.

Second, idk how many frames your talking about in you're early stages, and by perfect sheild do you mean perfect sheild or powersheild since they're different. Its relatively easy to powersheild something that you know is going to hit you with a little practice, and for grabs I would say half the time you get grabbed you knew you were going to get grabbed so if someone got really good at pressing Z grabs would become unviable. Making grab heavy characters like Puff, DK, ICs, etc. drop super low in viablility. "But they could just buff them right?" yeah they could, but then against a person who couldnt press Z correctly/didnt know how would just get dominated by that character regardless of skill level which isnt a good design choice.

Third, it takes away the importance of spacing. Unless you're fighting someone like Bowser, Samus, Snake, etc with a good up-b oos, or someone with a fast oos option like Sheik's nair or Fox's Shine/Upsmash(really only at kill %s) most of the time you misspace something unsafe on people's sheilds your getting grabbed. And that takes away a lot of options on characters with no other way to deal with poor spacing by getting rid of the grab option since you could lcancel and snap out of grabs with Z.

Agreed i like toasters idea.

I meant perfect shield not power shield.

The part about grabs becoming unviable i don't find particularly true. It just means people would have to be smarter about when they grab so their attempts aren't null. The idea was to just make it a timing thing like L canceling where there was a very small window to get it correct making it so practice would trump spamming and hoping for success. If someone were to get really good at grab releasing then like i said previously, you'd have to be smarter/trickier about when you grab. Plus the window wouldn't be that long if it even was a thing. Again consider it more like your clanking a grab with a 1 or 2 frame leniency in the sense that if you were surprised by it it's already too late to even attempt it.

The spacing part i didn't account for so i'll give you that much.

>mashing
>what inputs???
-facepalm

Not sure what your asking or whether your being sarcastic or...idk clarification would be nice.

If shield grabbing is reliable against or for you, then that means either you or your opponent has some incredibly bad positioning and spacing problems.

This i won't debate with because for the most part it's true.

 

[ECHOnce]

Not sure what your asking or whether your being sarcastic or...idk clarification would be nice.

Button mashing means spamming any given bunch of buttons to input as many inputs as possible for a given time period. Most efficient way is to hold C-stick in a direction (for DI + attack inputs) and spin the Control Stick.

 

[CORY]

from pmdt people i've spoken with, it's apparently a lot of potential work to get it to happen (the "if two characters both grab at the same time, they both go into grab release animations, rather than port priority determining grabs" thing) for a situation that really only arises very rarely (the part where both characters actually grab each other at the same time).

so, basically, they'd only be worried about the grabs occurring on both parties at the same time part, as opposed to how traditional fighters do it (the #frames window to hit grab and break it), and that situation doesn't legitimately happen all that often.

/hearsayandanecdotalevidence

 

[NisforSmash]

Button mashing means spamming any given bunch of buttons to input as many inputs as possible for a given time period. Most efficient way is to hold C-stick in a direction (for DI + attack inputs) and spin the Control Stick.

I knew that but i guess i just couldn't read his sarcasm ;_; a kappa or trollface woulda been nice.

Thanks cory. That clears things up.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

pls no, landing grabs with the Dorf is hard enough, at least let me get some punishes out of them

 

[Stride]

It would effectively make all chaingrabs impossible since once you've been thrown you can easily anticipate the regrab, unless you aren't able to tech grabs while in hitstun.

Grabs in general aren't overpowered (and therefore aren't deserving of such a huge systemwide nerf as grab techs), and spotdodging is not a "go-to defensive option" any more than rolling is; watch a high-level match and see how rarely a player uses spotdodging just to avoid attacks.

Also you asked about how many inputs it takes to break a grab:
http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/#22

 

[thatoneguy1]

only thing like this i would be ok with would be forcing both characters into a grab break if they grab each other on the same frame. currently the grabber in that situation is determined randomly

port priority?

 

[standardtoaster]

Port priority doesn't play into account when two characters grab each other on the same frame. It really is decided randomly.

 

[Stride]

Port priority doesn't play into account when two characters grab each other on the same frame. It really is decided randomly.

Is that a Brawl thing or was it added in PM? What was it like in Melee and 64?

 

[standardtoaster]

That's a brawl thing. It was based on port priority in melee. I have no idea about anything in 64.

 

[NisforSmash]

It would effectively make all chaingrabs impossible since once you've been thrown you can easily anticipate the regrab, unless you aren't able to tech grabs while in hitstun.

Grabs in general aren't overpowered (and therefore aren't deserving of such a huge systemwide nerf as grab techs), and spotdodging is not a "go-to defensive option" any more than rolling is; watch a high-level match and see how rarely a player uses spotdodging just to avoid attacks.

Also you asked about how many inputs it takes to break a grab:
http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/#22

Thanks for the info. spotdodging depending on the character might be your only go to option if you anticipate a grab and are within grab range.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Port priority doesn't play into account when two characters grab each other on the same frame. It really is decided randomly.

What does port priority effect in PM?

 

[ECHOnce]

What does port priority effect in PM?

Nothing, I believe. In Melee/Brawl, iirc the things port priority determined were who got grabs, who got their attack in, and who doesn't receives KB when both characters are hit during a grabbing/being grabbed state. The first two were decided by who was closest to P1 (PM has it as random), while the latter was decided by who was closest to P4 (PM now bases that off whose hurtboxes were actually hit; both players receive KB if both hit by an attack during the grab animation. Not 100% on this, but despite being the most prominent examples of grab KB priority stuff in Melee/Brawl, I think Snake/Link bombs were excepted and left in PM since using them in grabs played a big part in their meta...either it still works the same way port priority-wise as in Melee/Brawl, or it now only gives the opponent KB regardless of controller priority)

 

[Celestis]

I kinda think this would be cool because of the randomness of the same frame grab mechanics. The less randomness, the better.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Port priority determines who takes knockback if both players are hit at the same time while one is holding the other in a grab. Which is relevant in doubles, and as or against characters with moves that can harm themselves such as with explosives, particularly snake but also link. Both players damage but the one closer to first port will take the knockback.
Port priority is also probably relevant in determining who grabs the edge when two can grab at the same time, as well as who gets grabbed when two characters come into contact with a third character's grabbox on the same frame. And possibly moves that can affect only one character, such as snake's sticky.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

only thing like this i would be ok with would be forcing both characters into a grab break if they grab each other on the same frame. currently the grabber in that situation is determined randomly

I agree.