I'm losin it....

[SPIRE_FAN]

So I'm starting to move from R to L for L-Cancelling. Does anyone have any advice??
But most importantly, I've been maining Yoshi for a long time. Yet, I actually don't feel that comfortable playing him in P:M at tournaments atm. I think a lot of it has to do with some Rising Aerial problems (See my other threads here for details). But mostly, it's the neutral game. I feel I'm a little predictable with my approaches and I'm so used to messing up a DJC via Rising Aerial (though rarely) that it really messes up my mindset and muscle memory.

I go to training mode a lot. But it's different when I actually play... I just want to feel comfortable.. And I've been using Yoshi as a centered main for at least 4 years now in Melee.

Here are 2 matches taken from our weeklies last week. (Note that Mario is a tough matchup for Yoshi imo.)

And I think a lot of it is me having the tournament gitters (Choking). I tend to do this in crowds, when I play piano for someone, etc...

Feedback is highly welcome!! (No johns... but I was using a new controller on these matches.. went back to my old one after this tourney..) A lot of the stuff in the P:M vid where I made common mistakes like dodging out of nowhere did come from me having the tournament gitters...

And I see a lot of my mistakes all the time afterwards... I just need to play with a less predictable mentality (and less nervous).. any feedback on this will be greatly appreciated.

 

[TensenROB]

I changed from R to L cancelling, and while I don't have 4 years of doing it with R I can say I've grown comfortable with it. It's initially confusing to do in matches against people, but I was recognizing the mistake every time I made it so cancelling with L was just on my mind for a while until it was just habit.

 

[SPIRE_FAN]

I changed from R to L cancelling, and while I don't have 4 years of doing it with R I can say I've grown comfortable with it. It's initially confusing to do in matches against people, but I was recognizing the mistake every time I made it so cancelling with L was just on my mind for a while until it was just habit.

I actually didn't start L-cancelling until December (yeah... I know..). But I've noticed that I do less rising aerial's by mistake when I use L. Another question is how often should I use/think about turning around mid jump and using back air?? I do it, but if I think about it... it really messes me up often. I start doing it over and over until I get a hit (I need to get out of this mentality for it!!)

 

[TensenROB]

I actually didn't start L-cancelling until December (yeah... I know..). But I've noticed that I do less rising aerial's by mistake when I use L. Another question is how often should I use/think about turning around mid jump and using back air?? I do it, but if I think about it... it really messes me up often. I start doing it over and over until I get a hit (I need to get out of this mentality for it!!)

gif of b-air here
I think b-air's usefulness comes mostly from being good for racking up % and how it can link into his u-air or n-air in the air. It's knockback angle is sort of close to vertical but not strong so it guarantees an up-tilt or f-tilt at mid-ish %'s. At worst it has an 8 frame window for shield grab between the second and third hit. I think turnaround djc to a retreating b-air is safe but weak option because the hits don't link together well and there isn't as much an ability to follow up. A turnaround djc to a retreating f-air (still facing the opponent) leads to a tech chase, and a turnaround djc to a retreating b-turnaround egg lay is weird but worth considering. I hope I didn't misinterpret what you meant, pretty early on in the first video you linked b-air into a f-tilt which is good.

 

[SPIRE_FAN]

Yeah, I went back to using R for cancel's and that frame data really helps!! And I completely agree with how you stated back air should be utilized.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yoshi's grab game is godlike man. His pivot-grab is just nasty. My play-style with Yoshi (and really in the whole of smash) relies heavily on reads and mind games, so I like to throw in mixups and do things the opponent doesn't expect. I use rising aerials to tech chase on platforms and to bait out trades with the double jump super-armor nairs.
my main approaches are:
1: shorthop > nair > L-cancel (yes I use L) > jab > jab > downtilt (x2 when neccessaary) > techchase
This approach, if I get the L cancel correct, is the best approach. If they shield the nair, jabs come out immediately for shield pressure, and then they try to shield grab you or counter and you downtilt them away. If you land the Niar, it opens up far more options including (at the right percentage) nair > forwardtilt > dash attack > downsmash. If they spot dodge the nair, it may still hit them and you still have your jabs as a followup.
2: dashdance forward > wavedash back > pretend to go in for a dash attack or a grab and bait the sidestep or shield > wavedash back > running or pivot grab > downthrow > depending on their DI you can get an upair then eggthrow chase, or if they DI away, you get a forwardair or a nair
3: Jab > jab > downtilt
^more useful than any other approach because of the priority and set knockback of the downtilt. Also good for killing an opponent's shorthop approach
4: Dash attack
If they shield it or spot dodge it, they'll either want to grab you or backair you, but Yoshi's shield comes out fast enough to block a backair and to parry the grab. then you simply jump out of shield and nair.
5: Eggroll (start in the air) > eggroll cancel > jab > jab > downtilt (low percentages)
Eggroll is incredibly viable as an approach now (who knew?) mainly because it hits twice and applies very good shield pressure. It hits once on impact of the egg, then again because you canceled it. If they shield both of those, you have the jab jab downtilt to space yourself again. If they spot dodge , they will get hit by the cancel and you get free hits after that. If they get a counterhit off, the eggroll eats it and you can easily wavedash back.
With any approach, when in doubt, downtilt or nair out of shield. both have good priority and nair out of shield (especially if you double jump cancel) can stuff shield pressure.

Yoshi loves platforms. pick stages that allow you to techchase people on platforms, because rising aerials allow followup to a missed chase. Say you downthrow a Ness and he lands on the platform above you, you read a roll and techchase with a backair. he rolls the opposite way, well now you use a turnaround rising forwardair to catch him off. The combo continues. Also a smart Yoshi is ungimpable. Doublejump Super armor carries you through lower percentages, since you can tank everything at the ledge. Yoshi's eggroll is a great new tool to approach, but its also invaluable for recoveries. Some instances where you get caught with 0 survivability DI, you can still make it back with eggroll and airdodge.
This all may be just scrubtastic and I'm wasting my time, but this is how I Yosh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVcSy-OoBMA

 

[Toomad]

I'm not sure I'd call Yoshi's grab game godly. I've found grabbing out of shield to be a pretty dodgy prospect as Yoshi's grab takes so long to get out I usually get follow up jabbed before it connects, especially against spaced and L-cancelled airs. His pivot grabs are great but less useful in that you need to read pretty hard to hit it.

Spaced, fast-falled Nair to down tilt is a pretty good approach, you can follow it up with dash attack or sometimes even a SHFFLed F-air if they miss the tech.

Edit: Also I like your Yoshi Tombo, lots of nice option taking.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Grabbing out of shield is a pretty small part of what "grab game" is. Yoshi has a good grab range, his dash and pivot grab are both pretty quick, with lots of active frames, and his dash dance is good enough to weave around. He's also got good stuff he can do after a grab, which is another big part of it.

Oos options, no, grab isn't your go-to option. Nair/Bair out of shield is probably preferable most of the time, or even Dair. You can even jump and NeutralB, which is a quicker option. You can jump out of shield now, do it.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'm not sure I'd call Yoshi's grab game godly. I've found grabbing out of shield to be a pretty dodgy prospect as Yoshi's grab takes so long to get out I usually get follow up jabbed before it connects, especially against spaced and L-cancelled airs. His pivot grabs are great but less useful in that you need to read pretty hard to hit it.

Spaced, fast-falled Nair to down tilt is a pretty good approach, you can follow it up with dash attack or sometimes even a SHFFLed F-air if they miss the tech.

Edit: Also I like your Yoshi Tombo, lots of nice option taking.

Thanks. I have developed my Yoshi considerably further than what I show in the video. As I said in the vid, More is coming, and I'll show you guys my mind games with my (yes, godlike) grab-game and my eggroll mind games. Also, I figured out a nice combo off of platforms where you rising fair and then get free aerials as a followup. like: at the right percentage, fair to dair or fair to uair. Rising aerials provide amazing options for tech chases, especially on platforms (since Yoshi's fair hitbox starts the moment his head starts to move down, meaning you can shorthop fair and hit someone above you on a platform). I still have to work on my DJC ground aerials, but as I said, my Yoshi has Level upped since I recorded that footage. More to come