I'm having trouble killing.

[Foo]

I've been playing Zero Suit exclusively since brawl, and I've gotten pretty good over time. However, my main difficulty is landing kill moves on good players. It feels nearly impossible to hit a raw forward/down smash or back air against players who use their shield well.

I am having an easy time comboing, spacing, and dodging, but I tend to leave my opponent at really high percent because I only have to reliable kill moves, and I don't know how to combo into them. The only way I can land kills (on really good players) is by either doing funky mind games and punishing or knocking off the stage and ledge guarding. The

Does anyone know any guaranteed combos into bair or fsmash? I've tried side B to bair, but you can't hit it if they DI correctly. I've also tried down throw into bair, but that isn't guaranteed either. I can up throw into up b sweet spot fast fall bair, but they can tech it. What I'm really looking for is a way to kill out of a throw reliably, so my opponent can't just hide behind their shield when at high percent.

(Before anyone says these: Yes, I know how to shorthop and space bair, yes I know how to ledge guard with downsmash, yes I know downsmash combos into forward smash, but down smash is harder to hit than forward smash and yes I know moves like her up air, up smash, and fair CAN kill, but they aren't very reliable.)

 

[Axrz]

You don't have any guaranteed kill setups. You have a lot of possible options for kills out of throws, but nothing is guaranteed if they di correctly. Bair is your only reliable kill move, divekick and forward smash are difficult to set up into. Fair is unreliable if you hit with the first hit, since it's easy to sdi, but if you time the 2nd hit you'll have a lot more success.

 

[G13_Flux]

i really have to disagree with a lot that was just said. ZSS doesnt have many options that are going to land her KOs at especially low percents, but she has the mobility and combos to get her opponents quickly to the percents where she does kill well which are still not too far into the hundreds. Its not always particularly difficult to land dsmashes if you use them properly in conjunction with DDs and pivots. neutral b is great at helping you land dsmashes, nairs, uairs, side bs, and dairs (5 great combo set ups), as well as fsmashes and bairs (your best kill options). they might be able to DI side b to avoid a direct bair follow up, but that should instead lead you right into a nair string. fairs really arent hard to land either when you are using them as a combo finisher near the edge when DI is really predictable.

If you learn to really make use of pivots, fox trots, and DDs in conjunction with her best spacing options (dsmash, side b, neutral b, nair), then you will find that you are able to set up into kills much easier. ZSS definitely take a bit of technical finesse, and you have to learn to deal with her different grab mechanics, but overall, she has a lot of powerful options (just different ways of getting to those options).

 

[Foo]

@ G13_Flux So, from what I've getting, there aren't combos that lead to her kill moves, you have to mind game and punish a missed attack or catch someone off guard. I don't dash dance, but I'm about to start on it. I played only brawl until a couple months ago, and was spending time getting used to the faster speed, then new moveset, then new combos, then teching, then smash DIing and now I wanna work on dash dancing and then wave dashing.

I sorta know what pivoting is, but I've never heard of foxtrotting. Could you explain those two more?

 

[G13_Flux]

No that want exactly what I was saying. I probably should have been more clear, but I was basically saying that you need to make good use of ZSSs ground mobility options to land her most effective spacing options and kill set ups. Dair > bair, dsmash >bair, side b > bair/fair, dsmash > fsmash, neutral b > fsmash, and nair > fair are all reliable kill options in different situations that kill at very reasonable percents. Some can be slightly DI dependent, like side b set ups, but even with escape di she still has other options to help extend the combo or keep the opponent at a disadvantageous position.

Fox trotting Is just like dash dancing, except it's done in one direction. You basically are running by just using the initial dash animation so that you can retain the ability to dash back the other way at any time. The input is just dash, slight pause, dash, slight pause, and on as long as you need. Definitelysearch videos on you tube if you are confused.

As far as pivoting goes, its basically just doing a simple turn around into the standing pose from within your initial dash animation. Since the only attacks you can do out of a dash are grabs, dash attacks, side bs, and up smashes, you can use pivots to quickly end your initial dash, and immediately do any other attack, say, a dsmash. All this does is gives you more control over your ability to position yourself for an attack or a defense. Since ZSS has so many ranged options, using her speed in conjunction with these pivots is quite potent in helping her to stay out of range of opponents attacks while still being able to make punishes.

The input for a pivot btw is just a tilt in the opposite direction during the initial dash animation window, as opposed to a smash input on the control stick which causes a dash dance

 

[Foo]

Wait, why would you bair off of a downsmash? This isn't brawl, fsmash has more knockback than bair, and you can charge it a bit. Can you confirm that Dair to Bair really works? Whenever I do that at a killing percent, they wind up above me (unless they are heavy). Whenever I side-B someone when at kill percent, they DI up and away, and I can't get to them before they recover. Is there something I'm doing wrong there? Nair to Fair seems REALLY fishy to me. When at kill percent, fair actually has decent knockback. I've even killed with it before lol (#DumpDI). Do you know how reliable downthrow to bair is? I only thought of trying it for the very last set I played, but it worked each time around 120%. With proper reaction to their DI, can you consistently land it?

Thanks for the tips on pivoting, I may get that down before dash dancing. Maybe with pivoting I can land a downsmash sometime.

 

[G13_Flux]

ZSS doesnt have much off of throws as far as killing goes. she can start strings which may lead to kills, but things like dthrow > bair def are not reliable all the time, since DI away kills it. dsmash > bair works because bair actually has comparable KB to fsmash unless you charge the fsmash. while charging the fsmash, the opponent has more time to mash out. you would dsmash to bair for its speed advantage over charging an fsmash (to make the fsmash more worth while than the bair). you might also use it if you get off the ledge, dsmash an opponent, and need them to be hit behind you, not forward. and also for style points lol. dair > bair is most certainly relatively reliable. if you are on a big stage, then at kill percent in the center of the stage, its most likely that they will be above you, and you too high to follow up with the bair. but many of the times, its not to hard to land a dair near the edge at a lower percent that will kill where they are in perfect position for you, or you can simply use your DJ afterwards to connect with the bair. its also falling speed dependent, so remember that. as far as fair goes, its definitely a bit harder to connect with, but on FFers or heavies its pretty easy to work them offstage at low percents with nairs then use an offstage fair to push them out of the blastzone. If they are able to escape side b combos, i reccomend trying to dash and jump at them with a fair, nair, or uair instead. if they are around 110ish % and are escaping side b combos, then that means they are on the floaty/light side, and naturally escape those types of combos anyways. heavier characters will almost always be trapped by side b combos.

a lot of her combos require good DI reads, and are dependent on falling speed/weight so im not going to tell you that all of the above will work all the time. ZSS has a lot of good options though, so you can usually find one to fit the situation. she is a very technically precise character, and id say that she takes more effort than the average to learn. so just be mindful of trying to experiment with different combos, while reading DI, and taking note of their percent/weight/falling speed.

 

[alandaband]

I've had some luck killing with a low angled F-tilt at higher percents. I haven't used it much but it might be a good tech chase follow up?

 

[Daftatt]

Use lasers effectively then dash-grab cancel the lasers to get a grab

Use grab into up-throw or down-throw to set up for a bair kill, an upair-plasmawire-bair kill or even just a fair kill (particularly satisfying to land).

Push them off stage, wait for the recovery and if they don sweet spot perfectly then d-smash, wait for pop up, then f-smash

 

[cannedbread]

dsmash more and make them count.

 

[kaizo13]

laser>dash attack is pretty good for getting them off-stage, follow it up with a solid edge guard and thats a stock

 

[TimeSmash]

Don't forget the (albeit rarely used) spike that UpB has off stage.

 

[Foo]

Keep in mind, guys: I know OF all her kill moves, it's a matter of getting them off. Of course, this depends on characters/stages/location.

Jab: Unrealistic
Downtilt: Unrealistic
uptilt: Unrealistic
Forwardtilt: As low as 120 if you hit it at a weird angle, they don't DI upwards and they have bad vertical recovery.
Downsmash: Doesn't kill, leads into kills (fsmash and back air off and on stage, footstool off stage)
Upsmash: If they DI poorly, can kill around 180%ish.
Forwardsmash: My most reliable kill move: I've killed at 80% off the side with some charge when ledge guarding a gannon who didn't sweet spot. Anything higher just depends on location and weight
SideB: Unrealistic
UpB: As a spike off stage
DownB: Can kill around 140% (depending on location) if you hit an airborne target.
Up Air: With bad DI, can sky KO around 160%, depending on stage. Around 200%, can reliably kill against most characters on most stages. Can gimp backwards off stage
Bair: Second most reliable for me, probably the most reliable for pros. It seems to kill at very different %s for me. It has a sweet spot, but I have a hard time knowing when I hit the sweet or sour bair. I find it kills around 120% near the edge of the stage.
Fair: Good gimp tool, but really hard to land as a kill move because of the 3 kick mechanic. When you hit the third kick, I find it to be about as strong as a sour bair.

So, if I missed anything in there or was incorrect, feel free to correct those. All of those are based off my experiences, I didn't crunch any numbers. I'm mostly looking for ways to lead into those kill moves, other than just "landing dair," like I said in the OP. *glares at cannedbread* If you have any strategies that help me land that downsmash, I'm more than happy to learn about that.

 

[TimeSmash]

Does Upair have like a second hitbox, like on Zss' feet? I can't recall, but it might be good for horizontal KOs. Super speculation though.

Edit: Unless you were talking about that backwards gimp, that might be what I'm referring to. Sorry for the uncertainty.

 

[G13_Flux]

fair is only two kicks btw. its a bit stronger than sourspot bair and has a much more horizontal angle. a good way to connect with it is to not even try to connect with the first kick. just nair/uair (depending on their fall speed) > second kick fair. land it offstage, and its quite often a kill due to the angle. can be set up into with dairs, side bs, and dthrows as well.

dive kick can be set up into the same way as fair, but it has more leniency since you can get a lot of added range from the initial down b jump.

bair has dtilt, dsmash, side b, dthrow sometimes, and dair as reliable set ups. many times, you can use it as a straight up poke, tech chase, or edge guard to connect with it.

fsmash has neutral B, dsmash, and general edge guarding punishes as its sets ups.

up B meteor does see its uses, although is less reliable than the first three i mentioned

flipstool/footsool meteor sees uses as well in punishing recoveries with predictable trajectories, as well as following up dsmash punishes on recovering opponents.

uair can straight up kill not too long past 130% on floaties, sometimes earlier depending on stage. can kill earlier if used when edge guarding.

her best kill moves (bair, fsmash, dive kick, and fair) all have a lot of pretty reliable set ups into them. theyre certainly not always the easiest set ups to work with, as controlling ZSS, and setting up kill strings does take some DI reads, but theyre far from impossible, and once you get used to her movements theyre not that difficult to set up at all. you have to be very mindful of spacing with ZSS, much moreso than a lot of other characters. for this reason, it can seem like her kill set ups are impossible to achieve, but it absolutely can be done.

 

[TimeSmash]

Using jump momentum for neutral B has some uses (jump, immediately charge the charge shot, if stunned, hit with aerial/whatever).

 

[Foo]

Yeah, I've been practicing that a lot lately. That and dash shorthop nair. It's tricky to pull off, but I'm getting better and better at it. It's not a bad mixup either, because you can charge it or not. Another thing I've been practicing is, when I hit the full charge laser, dash/crouchcancel/forward smash for a kill.

Oh, I also learned that downsmash can kill. They need to be above 800%, but my life would be complete if I landed that on anyone.

 

[pichuthedk]

Realized i posted in the wrong forum section so deleting this sorry thought this was normal brawl.

 

[TimeSmash]

Stage selection is also important. Obviously you're going to have a hell of an easier time killing on something like WarioWare, but choosing a stage like that isn't always going to work in your favor depending on the character. Things like Zelda kicks, Bowser and Ike FSmashes can kill you REALLY early, especially if your DI is off.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

If your enemy is in the air most of the time, up-b can potentially lead into a d-smash or d-tilt. If you are fast enough, they won't be able to tech the ground. If your enemy is off-stage and at an appropriate distance above, you can try an up-b spike for quick gimps/kills. Just drop off the ledge or jump, then follow under them, doublejump and immediately up-b. your momentum should make you either land on stage, or have enough time to tether back.

 

[jeck95]

i like to d-throw or u-throw depending on weight of the character to either fair, bair, or uair if they are high enough. Depending on the di, you can do dair after the throw into whatever your heart desires.