If Stadium was removed as a counterpick, how would the meta change?

[sam:)]

I've thought about this for a while and it seems to me that this stage's removal would only make the game more balanced; it'd slightly nerf fox while slightly buffing the floatier characters, Bo5's could go through every stage, and transformations wouldn't cause lame **** to happen like m2k mind gaming chillindude IRL and tipping him thru the tree.

In addition to this, I've looked through the thread in which the current stage list was decided. I don't have a link to it but it was essentially Cactuar and a small group of players that voted and decided on the final list (it was mostly fox players IIRC). Crimson Blur was contesting the fact that stages like Brinstar (benefits puff and peach) were completely removed from competitive play by a small group of players and I honestly really saw where he was coming from.

So can someone explain to me in detail why PS is still in the stagelist?

 

[sam:)]

^double posted, please delete mods

 

[Kurodyne]

I've thought about this for a while and it seems to me that this stage's removal would only make the game more balanced; it'd slightly nerf fox while slightly buffing the floatier characters, Bo5's could go through every stage, and transformations wouldn't cause lame **** to happen like m2k mind gaming chillindude IRL and tipping him thru the tree.

This is the same guy that SD'd to even out a match when his opponent used Falco's side special and KO'd himself with it.

I doubt he moved Chillin's cup of water just to land an FSmash. He would have to know that Chillin would stop his dash dance right by the base of the tree and assume he won't react quickly enough to what he's trying to do.

He even whiffed the fsmash once and Chillin didn't back up.

 

[sam:)]

This is the same guy that SD'd to even out a match when his opponent used Falco's side special and KO'd himself with it.

I doubt he moved Chillin's cup of water just to land an FSmash. He would have to know that Chillin would stop his dash dance right by the base of the tree and assume he won't react quickly enough to what he's trying to do.

He even whiffed the fsmash once and Chillin didn't back up.

ok that's one situation, you still didn't answer my question

i think you could definitely make a reasonable argument that the stage causes lame stuff to happen, like
-puff/peach dying to fox uair and usmash and 40-50%
-weird walls and platforms can rob from KO's if the other player techs
-the windmill is super annoying in general
-marth's strange d-tilt angles by the edge
-random ledges that cause things to cancel/edge cancel (falcons raptor boost, fox's shine)

there are certainly more. i'm just advocating the most fair and balanced way to play the game (IMO, without stadium).

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

I've always felt like Stadium and its wacky transformations give Melee some character. They spice things up a little, you know? Kind of like a stage-wide, randomized Randall. I think it was at Evo 2013, but there was a set between Hbox and Wobblez where Hbox went for a YOLO Rest right where the tree was about to spawn because he knew that Wobblez wouldn't be able to wobble him, which is pretty cool. Anyway, I basically just think that what it brings to the meta is refreshing.

 

[EPsilon933]

The change the removal of PS could bring would be very small. It's only 1 of 6 stages and characters make up much more of the meta than stages do. Basically all that will happen is the loss of stage-specific strategies. And Fox would perform slightly worse and Peach and Jigglypuff would perform slightly better, overall. PS is the most unique stage among the neutral 6 by far, but it's also the most janky. Are strategies like camping until it returns to neutral worth keeping for other stuff?

Despite its 2 bad transformations, it's still a fun and good stage to compete on. There is nothing wrong with the neutral and grass transformations. Water has a windmill which can be an annoyance, but it's very tolerable. Fire is okay until players get separated by the tree and rock sucks. I don't know PS's stage transformation timings, but the problems of the stage don't last long

 

[GenNyan]

The point of banning stages isn't to "balance the game." Stages are only banned if they are deemed particularly unfair in terms of randomness (Corneria), infinites (Drill shine), or promoting degenerate strategies (Temple). In fact, the only reason that stadium has counter pick status is because it's impossible to stage strike fairly with an even number of stages.

 

[sam:)]

The point of banning stages isn't to "balance the game." Stages are only banned if they are deemed particularly unfair in terms of randomness (Corneria), infinites (Drill shine), or promoting degenerate strategies (Temple). In fact, the only reason that stadium has counter pick status is because it's impossible to stage strike fairly with an even number of stages.

i'm sorry but none of this makes sense

how is banning stages for being unfair NOT the same as banning them because of balance? there is definitely randomness and infinites on pokemon.

by your logic, why was brinstar banned?

also, what the hell are you talking about. stage striking doesn't include pokemon stadium (which makes the total number of stages 6), it has the 5 neutrals which imo is perfectly fair.

 

[pagedMov]

He said particularly unfair in terms of randomness and infinites. PS is actually a balanced stage and Peach/Puff dying 10% earlier isn't enough to constitute banning it from the stage roster.

 

[EPsilon933]

A thing about neutral stages that might not get mentioned enough is that they have flat main floors. Fighting on them works so much better

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

What he's saying is that one of the qualifications for a stage being legal isn't that the stage balances the game. If counterpicks were chosen because they balance the game, then Brinstar and Mute City would still be legal. But they aren't, because they have hazards, which Stadium doesn't. It has temporary infinites, but nothing that can't be avoided. I play Marth, Peach, and Puff. I definitely don't like Stadium's ceiling, but I still think it should be legal.

 

[GenNyan]

i'm sorry but none of this makes sense

how is banning stages for being unfair NOT the same as banning them because of balance? there is definitely randomness and infinites on pokemon.

by your logic, why was brinstar banned?

http://smashboards.com/threads/tentative-mbr-official-ruleset-for-2012.313252/
I think you'll find this thread very informative. I've quoted a section that answers some of your questions below.

It isn't so much an issue of stages being insta-win or insta-lose, but a combination of that factor and the issue with the random elements causing "wildcard" situations. These situations are generally factors that have nothing to do with either player actually playing the game, but their character being affected by the stage in a negative manner which can potentially cost them the game, especially when high level play in this game often comes down to "last stock last hit". We don't want to enable stages that will essentially randomize the outcome of the match, and we don't want stages that will essentially guarantee victory for certain characters. Brinstar unfortunately can be placed under both catagories, as the lava element has enough of an effect to sway the match in such a manner, but at the same time provides such a benefit to certain floaty characters that it has been deemed near insta-win.

also, what the hell are you talking about. stage striking doesn't include pokemon stadium (which makes the total number of stages 6), it has the 5 neutrals which imo is perfectly fair.

I didn't say Stadium wasn't a counter pick. If you want to re-read my post with a little less bias going in, then feel free. I said that the only reason that it wasn't a neutral, was because you need an odd number of stages to stage strike. If stage striking could be done fairly with 6 stages, then PS would be a neutral.