If a mod sees this, please delete the thread (or me)

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Holy ****.

Hi, it's currently Feb 28th, 2020. Out of NOWHERE, I remembered this thread existed, and uh yeah, not huge on leaving a garbage relic from when I was in high school floating around on the internet. There's a pretty stark difference between then me and now me, especially considering I have to pay taxes, UGH. People will definitely dig this kind of crap up in the future, not really sure I want that, so here I am writing this!

There's some other pretty stupid stuff too if you feel like digging around, I think I had some pretty juicy takes and was pretty full of myself. I used to try and play up how long I'd been programming based on when I'd technically started. Like yeah sure I got started on god-forsaken Scratch when I was 5 or 6, that does not mean I have 10 years of programming experience, ****ing dumbass. Who was I trying to fool or impress? I don't know. But either way, still doing programming, I do it for a living now, so that's fun.

Either way, this thread was easily the worst, so here I am to partially remove it from existence by editing it out. If you've read this, I hope it was entertaining. If you're reading this and for some reason you want to read what was here before, hit me up and I'll decided whether or not I want to share the backup I made, lol.

I bid you my final farewell SmashBoards, you were very entertaining when I had time to kill in my computer classes back in high school. Good memories. Wish I had that kind of time these days...

Post Edit:

Oh come on, SmashBoards censors curse words? Was it like that when I was active here? It ruins the flow of my sentences man. Whoever's reading this, know full well I did in fact type those evil curse words out, dammit. Unless you're a future employer of mine and you don't like curse words. In that case, it was 100% on purpose and the words are NOT curse words.

 

[Twisted_Winds]

Variable timing on L-cancels doesn't solve the problem that L-cancelling is arbitrary. Your system requires more precision from the player in order to play optimally but it's still arbitrary compared to simply having a lower, static, amount of landing lag frames.

Using the C-stick to control shield tilt poses a couple issues. In Melee the C-stick while shielding allowed you to buffer a roll or spot dodge during shield stun. This is critical in escaping some shield pressure that otherwise requires very strict timing. (Such as < 2 frames) Using the C-stick to tilt the shield will take the players thumb off of the face buttons making it difficult to both tilt the shield and then choose to grab (If they use the A button while shielding to grab) or jump OoS. Control configs can aleviate this somewhat by mapping jump buttons to a trigger or shoulder button but this still forces the hand of players who would not like that control scheme.

The barrier shield poses an issue and that's the degree you have to tilt the shield in order to block in the opposite direction. If someone is pressuring your shield to your right and then they wavedash behind you to attack your left you now have to tilt the barrier shield quickly to defend yourself. This can be difficult without rolling and using the C-stick to control tilting has its own issues. Melee's rounded shield solves this problem by relegating shield tilting to protecting a specific point on your characters body when the shield is weak. If you have a full shield you don't have to be concerned with tilting as much. The barrier shield, I think, undeniably enhances the offense of the game.

More tech options sounds like a double edged sword to me. A good idea on paper but in practice will it prove to be too many options to cover even in a situation where one player has an advantage? I feel like it would be, especially with a jump tech. I foresee many 50/50 scenarios where you can either cover the grounded tech options or the tech jump. May or may not be a bad thing, could even out increased offense from shield changes, but I don't like the idea of constantly being put into 50/50 guess situations after you land a hit and have the advantage. Sloppy tech is weird. I would keep in mind the 40 frame penalty when you miss the timing of a tech (20 frames before hitting the ground) because the sloppy tech seems like it would bypass it.

Back tilts and smashes seem like bad ideas to me. What about the scenario where you're walking right, your opponent techs left to get behind you, and you want to smash or tilt quickly in that direction but you want your forward smash or tilt? Back smashes and tilts would get in the way of this.

Grabs need to be more important than Melee? Did I read that right? Did someone really ask for that? Grabs are super important as it is in Melee as they start so much. They can start huge damage combos or end stocks early. Grabbing is such a powerful option in Melee. Maybe you meant to have more variation in how you use grabs but either way I don't think it's warranted. Also, aerial grabs would be better suited as specials for specific characters than a universal tech.

As for the ledge options I feel the same about more ledge options as I do about more tech options, especially the ledge grab as it seems particularly powerful. Ledge push has its own issues in that some players like to press away to fall off the ledge so that would mean they either need more precision to play how they're used to or they have to learn to drop off the ledge by pressing down. Pressing down on the ledge has its own issue of causing a fast fall which easily throws off the timing of stuff like ledge dashing. (Wavedash onto the stage from the ledge)

There is a core problem with your ideas in that they are either a variation of an existing mechanic or just more of something. (More tech options, more smashes, more tilts, more grabs, etc) If you really want something different sit down and analyze Melee. What you think it did well and what you think it failed at and what it is you love about it. Take what you like about it and think of a mechanic that fixes a problem you think Melee has. Personally I think Melee's engine and its balance between offense and defense is perfect. It's only flaw are some polarizing character design issues.

I don't have any ideas of my own to share but maybe you find my thoughts and analysis of your ideas insightful or at least helpful in some way.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

[ Read the OP ]

 

[Twisted_Winds]

I definitely see where you're coming from with the L canceling thing. I suppose the best I can do is try it out, and switch between methods as needed. Coding L cancelling won't be hard at all.

I do believe that the barriers would make the game more offensive. I kind of want to take this game in a more offensive direction, so that's why I had that idea. I'm hoping to make games last about as long as they do in melee, but have 5 be the default stock count. That's just an idea, though. I've designed this in a way where everything is easily and quickly tweak-able (as demonstrated in the video), so we'll see when we get there. (I've considered developing a simple external application to edit the values even quicker, like in that CrazyHand tool for melee hacking)

And yes, you read that wrong. I never said grabs should be more important than they are in melee. Regardless, I probably shouldn't have said grab-based, that implies that grabs would be more substantial than they are in melee. (which is actually something I'm trying to move away from) The goal of this theoretical system is to make things like chain grabs a bit harder to pull off, while still being rewarding. For example, to chain grab a character with Marth, you would need to first get the character in the air, and use the up throw from the up grab. Using the normal grab's up throw would send the opponent at a more awkward followup angle.

If you're going to go with that L-cancelling system I would simplify it some to where you have three possible outcomes:

1) A missed L-cancel which results in default landing lag
2) A partially mistimed L-cancel which results in about 3/4 the default landing lag
3) A correct L-cancel which results in 1/2 default landing lag

Assuming you plan on gameplay at the pace of Melee I would keep its L-cancel window of 7 frames for the correct L-cancel. Then for a partially mistimed cancel maybe have that window be frame 8 to anywhere as high as frame 12. I think you were using 4 different L-cancel timings (Correct me if I'm wrong) so this would trim the fat so to speak.

If you're going for a more offensive, in your face, type of game the barrier might work pretty well. I work on my own platform fighting engine on and off in my spare time and had the same idea rolling around my head for a while before I scrapped it for reasons I've previously mentioned.

Now that you've clarified, that grab system seems fine. I'm a little concerned about all the inputs, let me list them all (Assuming I understand this correctly):

1) Normal grab
2) Up grab
3) Forward grab (dash grab)
4) Back grab
5) Down grab

Normal grab would have the usual pummel + 4 throws available. Then up, forward, back, and down throws would be completely separate types of throws, correct? Resulting in 8 possible throws? A notable drawback is the lack of a jump cancelled grab which means the only way to do a normal grab out of dash is to first wavedash otherwise your only options are the directional grabs. I'm not sure about this one. That's a lot of options and it might be a little overwhelming but the only objective concern I can think of is that it would be difficult to design 8 meaningful throws when Smash has a hard time getting 4 right. Try it and see how it works for you. (Same goes for the ledge grab. If you think you can balance it then try it out)

I had an idea a while back regarding a "shield shatter" technique. It was fairly straightforward. While shielding you could press B to shatter and completely destroy your shield. An opponent caught in the resulting hitbox would be stunned momentarily as if hit by something like ZSS laser gun. Your shield would be completely gone for a brief period and, if you attempt to shield during this time, you will enter the "shielding" state but lack a shield. Once the shield came back it would be small and would still have to regenerate. The shield shatter could be used both defensively and offensively. I scrapped it because I was having difficulty finding some sort of counterplay to using it to escape shield pressure outside of the opponent just playing safe or otherwise expecting it. If you want to work a bit with this idea, feel free.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

[ Read the OP ]

[ Tomorrow is a leap day ]

 

[l_wan]

Looks sick! Unity HYPE!
(I'm just getting into programming Unreal)

 

[creatår]

Since shine is such a great attack how about giving more characters similar tools to use? i.e more characters that have one attack that is instant.
I mean look at fox and falco, they can do seemingly endless stuff with it. Just think of the possibilities if a characters up-attacks(uptilt and upair) were instant. I dunno, this might turn out to be a disaster but it would be interesting to see what happens.7


<---- I'll probably look like a huge fox fanboy but whatever xD

 

[Twisted_Winds]

Wow, that shield shatter idea is actually pretty great. Let's say I go with the Barriers idea. You get 3 barriers per stock. Barriers become weaker the longer you hold them, but regenerate while you're not using them, just like normal shields. The difference is the barriers are much weaker than shields, and once it breaks, you can't regain it unless you lose a stock. You regain all 3 upon respawn.

That opens up a lot of possibilities. If someone is giving shield pressure, they can choose to shatter their shield. It's going to break anyways after all. Skilled players will be able to strategically avoid the shield shatter by making making it so that they break the shield while the opponent is still in shield stun. If someone is giving shield pressure, you can also choose to let go and just take the hit, keeping your barrier.

The more I think about different situations, the more I like the barriers idea.

You don't mind if I use the shatter idea, correct? It's an awesome idea, I'd love to use it.

If you're going with the barriers (And you've got an interesting idea there that's definitely worth trying) I would think about possible alternative ways to control the tilt of it. Even if it's a toggle-able option to allow a button that, when pressed, prevents rolling or spot dodging. To me that's the one issue with barrier like shields is being able to tilt it in high pressure situations but maybe you want it to be less reliable. (But more potent if utilized properly?)

And yeah you can go ahead and take the shield shatter idea. (Wouldn't have written about it otherwise ) I'm curious to see how it plays out.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

[ Read the OP ]

[ I had Honeycombs for breakfast today ]