BEZELGA
Smash Rookie
Hi. Im willing to collect info on what stages should IC pick agaisnt each character. These are for every IC main and made by me, but I want to hear your opinions to make an accurate post.
Feel free to discuss to further develop this chart!
**As grab is the best tool for an ICs player, first try to Dash Grab Jump Cancel properly**
--------------------------------Fox--------------------------------
//Fox has inhumanly possible the best neutral in the game, but its easy to mess up for us mere humans. You can juggle him with smash attacks and get a wobble if you put Nana just in front of you so he messes his L-cancel. Fox always plays camping to force to approach, so think he wants you to enter. Also if he attacks, its still safe on shield thanks to shine. Desync Ice-shot or Bizzard can condition his neutral game. Dont get cornered, a shine will make you fall off, then he will kill Nana, be patient so he doesnt get a read. //
)Even
Final Destination.- easier to wobble since its harder to camp. Staple in ICs arsenal.
Yoshi Story - best stage for sopo´s random down smash. ICs wavedash can caver low ground efficiently and you can short hop up-air to start a punish. Has the oddity that the ledges are diagonal instead of horizontal, so is safer to recover.
Battlefield .- isnt that bad as you can tech his uptrow and land faster. Also Fox can miss the ledge while recovering. Against a high level Fox, try to catch it w upair from below, any opening wiull be devastating for you.
)Unfavorable
Pokemon Stadium .- Fox takes advantages on transformations, so it would be best to stall them out. Normal stage is actually an even scenario.
Dreamland - heres is where IC are usually destroyed because of camping forces. Mentality agaisnt ICs is "floor is lava", and this satge is the safest for that motto. If ICs try to go in, then they´re punished; Obviously, this depends if your opponent likes the camping option, but in a tournament, wich objective is to win, he would do it
Fountain of Dreams- Fox jump is the best since is the fastest, and hopping is close the ground, and also full jump has considerable high and fall speed. So he can pressure all kinds of stages. Funny fact: you can desnyc wobble if you are on a platform gone low and Nana is on the ground.
--------------------------------Falco—------------------------------
//Sopo´s grab game can potentially destroy Falco and Popo´s D-throw to Nana´s D-air is an almost true regrab, so this MU is most luck. And good Falco main will pilar combo Nana into a 0-to-death//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- easier to wobble since its harder to camp. Staple in ICs arsenal. As Falco is clone, I cloned this line.
Batttlefield.- Falco can escape relying to the highest platform sinec ICs full jump upair doesnt go that high. Is good since you have a good amount of space to wavedash and platforms to tech roll away. Also Falco can miss the ledge.
Yoshi Story- Falco usually has priority, but usually ICs punishes are lethal for Falco due its fall speed. Also know as Falco Ville, can pilar combo easily and kill Nana at low %
Fountain of Dreams- He will just go to the higest platform and try to catch you off guard. mix a little w up B.
)Unfavorable
Dreamland - Can laser camp, escape jumping and has the lead here sinec he can shine split the climbers and Popo can not catch him.
Pokemon Stadium .- ICs have a dead angle that is 45º and Falco does a lot of dairs, sowatch out for him if isat that angle and above the platforms, if you are bellow you are safe w upair. Is normally good, but Falco takes advantage during transforms.
--------------------------------Sheik--------------------------------
//Sopo can chaingrab Sheik, so Sheik will try to go for needles and baits. Sheik´s Dash attack will lead to a wobble, so she willjump a lot, now you can make reads.//
)Watch out for
Battlefield- Sheik will try attack going down from the platforms, most common Sheik´s counterpick
Fountain of Dreams- same but platforms move so is less of a problem
Yoshi Story- you can chaingrab here, but Sheik will shield drop from platforms and catch Nana. Try ice blocks from a side platform to see Sheik´s reaction
)Favorable
Final Destination- Sheik depends on platform game, wich is bad for ICs, so its a staple, no brainer ICs stage
Everything else
--------------------------------Marth--------------------------------
//Essencial to smash DI and tech roll, also go for crouch cancel. Everything w platforms try to take advantage, the one below them will have an attack opportunity., so you can shield drop to upair. A good Marth, will try to chase from below//
)Not so bad
Final Destination .- this doesn’t allow Marth to continue combos on platform and you can try to go for wobbles if you know the desyncs. This MU is neutral heavy.
Yoshi´s Story .- in this MU, most IC try to trade beacause marth attacks are weak and this is the only stage you can go all out w Math, and both climbers attacks united are strong. Also you can try to land random down smashes. On every other stage, the gimpy Marth´s F-smash would be a more terrbile problem. You can also amsa tech a lot here.
)Unfavorable
Dreamland.- As dual climbers you can try to camp, but as a solo climbers it will be too hard to try to kill Marth, as he can survive longer and sopo´s recovery is bad. Marth´s worst stage due to the Marth syndrome, but not in this case. since ICs can edgeguard Marth and Marth can recover helped w side B.
--------------------------------Jigglypuff--------------------------------
//ICs dont really have a response against jigglypuff´s backair. U-airs and random smashg attacks are your only hope in this nightmarish stall MU. A grab with both climbers can do a down throw into a charged Nana´s upsmash to kill Jigglipuff at mid percent//
)Favorable
Yoshi Story- (Easier to kill, less place to hide).. If you are cornered, do buetral B on the side platform to make a mixup, then escape.
Pokémon Stadium- 2nd lowest vertical ceiling for random upsmash. Consider Nanapult -> upsmash
)Unfavorable
Dreamland - (Take a wild guess) In Army´s words, this MU is full camping and will win the one who takes the lead first, since the other will have to enter and then, be baited. The thing is.... That never go here jigglipuff will camp you harder.
Fountain of dreams- try to maintain the center, so you can upair the upper platform and if you can not enter, wait for the jiggs side platform to go down.
Battlefield.- also a pick your poison, but here you can actually camp in circles wavedashing. Just remember Jiggs camp takes less efforts, so dont do this for a long run or you will the one exhausted.
--------------------------------Peach--------------------------------
//In this MU ICs should go for the offensive; go for uairs, and practice up B, also in neutral try to go for fsmash instead of grab because float cancel has no lag//
)Not so bad
Pokémon Stadium- 2nd lowest vertical ceiling. You can try to escape from Peach when transformations.
Final Destination.- a staple in ICs arsenal, this will prevent campingfrom above. The thing about this stae is that people play safely against ICs, so there are not platforms to exploit their bad air movement.
)Unfavorable
Yoshi Story - 1 Peach´s fair = Nana offstage
Dreamland- Take a 2nd wild guess
Everything else- In this MU ICs should go for the offensive, so should be based on your playstyle, still unfavorable, thought)
------------------------------Captain Falcon-----------------------------
//This is a char that is now seen as unfavorable ICs Mu but top ICs players are most likely to win. Well timed knee is impossible to shield grab. Stay alert when Captain throw or you will die by fair//
)Favorable
Final Destination if you guess correctly you can hit him with disjointed hammer and do a tech chase.
)Even
He will just try to land aerials
)Unfavorable
Dreamland (Isn't easy to catch him up, so he will win the neutral. Also C. Falcon can refresh jump with down B)
--------------------------------Samus--------------------------------
//Samus always goes for missile spam. Samus is good controlling space so your shieldl will be almost always small. Samus lives forverer if you dont go for the wobble.//
)Even
Yoshi Story (ICs mains usually bring Samus here to try to catch)
Finall Destination (More difficult for Samus to cancel missile´s ending lag)
)Unfavorable
Everything else
Dreamland Samus already lives forever. Don´t help her.
Battlefield isn't so bad but can missile spam easily .
Fountain of dreams can live with extender, also everything from the MU packed
Pokémon Staidum Samus can tech everything here, missile spam, slow down the game gives time to charge neutral b....
--------------------------------(Dr.) Mario--------------------------------
//Mario and his alter ego have three options in neutral: wavedash dsmash, grab and fair. ICs downsmashes can show them who rules. Doc will spam pills more and if the Mario player is skill enough, he can double upB.//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- What I haven't say about this stage? ICs players well known for their neutral game so keep it in mind
Pokemon Staidum.- transforms will slow them down and can help to chase hem with uair. Also you can tech his attemps to kill you with a random smash attack.
)Even
Trust your instincts
)Unfavorable
Yoshi Story is good for Marios because they are reckless and small stages can help with that playstyle, with Doc isn't
--------------------------------Ganondorf--------------------------------
//Ganon´s neutral is just f-air,, as its shield stun wont let you shield grab him, try to bait then grab/ or approach first with double jab or ftilt. Upsmash is a guaranteed combo starter. Feel free to do grab combos //
)Favorable
Fountain of dreams ts a better option than battlefield since is easier to wavedash and a little easy to recover
)Even
Yoshi´s Story is easier for ganon to maintain pressure, but is also good for you to kill him and catch him in platfoms. At low % go for strong hits if you want, hes that slow.
)Unfavorable
Dreamland makes it possible for ganon to recover with down b and he doesn't need much to kill Nana.
--------------------------------Luigi--------------------------------
//Has an easy time separating the climbers. Will camp, use aerials mostly, but everything separates ICs. If you cant wobble, its most likely to lose this MU. Go for uairs in offensive low % play. In defensive mode, watch out for his wavedash approaches and try to catch him landing when you see him in the air wout challenging him//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- a staple in ICs arsenal, this will prevent camping
Pokemon Stadium.- transformations will slow him down and random upsmash is ok
)Even
Yoshi Story.- hindering Luigi´s recovery and random kills are a good idea
)Unfavorable
Everything else if you cant wobble; if you can, is likely even
--------------------------------Yoshi--------------------------------
//Is very easy to him to separate Nana. Yoshi´s movement depends on platforms so try tu punish it. Backdash into neutral B is good agaisnt Yoshi since is slow in the ground. Amsa has never lose to an ICs player. At low % you can down throw to upsmash//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- the less platforms, the worst for Yoshi
)Even
Pokemon Stadium.- Two platform far make Yoshi slower, but transformations help him, so put you in a situation where your opponent can mess up his landings.
Dreamland.- try to catch Yoshi here is hard, killing him, harder, egg spam dealing is imposible, go for this if you allowed to wobble. However yoshi´s movement is more limited here, and you can escape egg staling on the ledge. If Yoshi wants to go to the uppest platform it will have to use the other platforms or use his double jump, wich yu can convert to a kill.
)Unfavorable
Yoshi Story.- Its size is perfect for Yoshi´s movement since platforms are very close. And its downsmash will kill youlike nothing.
Fountain of Dreams.- platforms move and are so low to the ground you can up smash. Yoshi can egg spam from whatever point. And also, it can use every platform combination, but ICs can not.
Battlefield.- everything with platforms is in Yoshi´s favor. Try to catch w upairs. One of main reasons this MU is bad is beacause ICs can attack at 45º , and yoshi finds openings with aerials at that angle. So keep moving and if you find yourself cornered, escape with help of the platforms, you can escape wavedashing into the platforms, or wait for Yoshi to go up, then shield dropping.
--------------------------------Donkey Kong--------------------------------
//Think about DK as a Marth and you will win. Desyncs will keep you safe. Don´t challenge him from above//
)Favorable
Everything
)Unfavorable
Well, there´s a thing, Dreamland can help his spacing and retreat him for charge neutral B
Feel free to discuss to further develop this chart!
**As grab is the best tool for an ICs player, first try to Dash Grab Jump Cancel properly**
--------------------------------Fox--------------------------------
//Fox has inhumanly possible the best neutral in the game, but its easy to mess up for us mere humans. You can juggle him with smash attacks and get a wobble if you put Nana just in front of you so he messes his L-cancel. Fox always plays camping to force to approach, so think he wants you to enter. Also if he attacks, its still safe on shield thanks to shine. Desync Ice-shot or Bizzard can condition his neutral game. Dont get cornered, a shine will make you fall off, then he will kill Nana, be patient so he doesnt get a read. //
)Even
Final Destination.- easier to wobble since its harder to camp. Staple in ICs arsenal.
Yoshi Story - best stage for sopo´s random down smash. ICs wavedash can caver low ground efficiently and you can short hop up-air to start a punish. Has the oddity that the ledges are diagonal instead of horizontal, so is safer to recover.
Battlefield .- isnt that bad as you can tech his uptrow and land faster. Also Fox can miss the ledge while recovering. Against a high level Fox, try to catch it w upair from below, any opening wiull be devastating for you.
)Unfavorable
Pokemon Stadium .- Fox takes advantages on transformations, so it would be best to stall them out. Normal stage is actually an even scenario.
Dreamland - heres is where IC are usually destroyed because of camping forces. Mentality agaisnt ICs is "floor is lava", and this satge is the safest for that motto. If ICs try to go in, then they´re punished; Obviously, this depends if your opponent likes the camping option, but in a tournament, wich objective is to win, he would do it
Fountain of Dreams- Fox jump is the best since is the fastest, and hopping is close the ground, and also full jump has considerable high and fall speed. So he can pressure all kinds of stages. Funny fact: you can desnyc wobble if you are on a platform gone low and Nana is on the ground.
--------------------------------Falco—------------------------------
//Sopo´s grab game can potentially destroy Falco and Popo´s D-throw to Nana´s D-air is an almost true regrab, so this MU is most luck. And good Falco main will pilar combo Nana into a 0-to-death//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- easier to wobble since its harder to camp. Staple in ICs arsenal. As Falco is clone, I cloned this line.
Batttlefield.- Falco can escape relying to the highest platform sinec ICs full jump upair doesnt go that high. Is good since you have a good amount of space to wavedash and platforms to tech roll away. Also Falco can miss the ledge.
Yoshi Story- Falco usually has priority, but usually ICs punishes are lethal for Falco due its fall speed. Also know as Falco Ville, can pilar combo easily and kill Nana at low %
Fountain of Dreams- He will just go to the higest platform and try to catch you off guard. mix a little w up B.
)Unfavorable
Dreamland - Can laser camp, escape jumping and has the lead here sinec he can shine split the climbers and Popo can not catch him.
Pokemon Stadium .- ICs have a dead angle that is 45º and Falco does a lot of dairs, sowatch out for him if isat that angle and above the platforms, if you are bellow you are safe w upair. Is normally good, but Falco takes advantage during transforms.
--------------------------------Sheik--------------------------------
//Sopo can chaingrab Sheik, so Sheik will try to go for needles and baits. Sheik´s Dash attack will lead to a wobble, so she willjump a lot, now you can make reads.//
)Watch out for
Battlefield- Sheik will try attack going down from the platforms, most common Sheik´s counterpick
Fountain of Dreams- same but platforms move so is less of a problem
Yoshi Story- you can chaingrab here, but Sheik will shield drop from platforms and catch Nana. Try ice blocks from a side platform to see Sheik´s reaction
)Favorable
Final Destination- Sheik depends on platform game, wich is bad for ICs, so its a staple, no brainer ICs stage
Everything else
--------------------------------Marth--------------------------------
//Essencial to smash DI and tech roll, also go for crouch cancel. Everything w platforms try to take advantage, the one below them will have an attack opportunity., so you can shield drop to upair. A good Marth, will try to chase from below//
)Not so bad
Final Destination .- this doesn’t allow Marth to continue combos on platform and you can try to go for wobbles if you know the desyncs. This MU is neutral heavy.
Yoshi´s Story .- in this MU, most IC try to trade beacause marth attacks are weak and this is the only stage you can go all out w Math, and both climbers attacks united are strong. Also you can try to land random down smashes. On every other stage, the gimpy Marth´s F-smash would be a more terrbile problem. You can also amsa tech a lot here.
)Unfavorable
Dreamland.- As dual climbers you can try to camp, but as a solo climbers it will be too hard to try to kill Marth, as he can survive longer and sopo´s recovery is bad. Marth´s worst stage due to the Marth syndrome, but not in this case. since ICs can edgeguard Marth and Marth can recover helped w side B.
--------------------------------Jigglypuff--------------------------------
//ICs dont really have a response against jigglypuff´s backair. U-airs and random smashg attacks are your only hope in this nightmarish stall MU. A grab with both climbers can do a down throw into a charged Nana´s upsmash to kill Jigglipuff at mid percent//
)Favorable
Yoshi Story- (Easier to kill, less place to hide).. If you are cornered, do buetral B on the side platform to make a mixup, then escape.
Pokémon Stadium- 2nd lowest vertical ceiling for random upsmash. Consider Nanapult -> upsmash
)Unfavorable
Dreamland - (Take a wild guess) In Army´s words, this MU is full camping and will win the one who takes the lead first, since the other will have to enter and then, be baited. The thing is.... That never go here jigglipuff will camp you harder.
Fountain of dreams- try to maintain the center, so you can upair the upper platform and if you can not enter, wait for the jiggs side platform to go down.
Battlefield.- also a pick your poison, but here you can actually camp in circles wavedashing. Just remember Jiggs camp takes less efforts, so dont do this for a long run or you will the one exhausted.
--------------------------------Peach--------------------------------
//In this MU ICs should go for the offensive; go for uairs, and practice up B, also in neutral try to go for fsmash instead of grab because float cancel has no lag//
)Not so bad
Pokémon Stadium- 2nd lowest vertical ceiling. You can try to escape from Peach when transformations.
Final Destination.- a staple in ICs arsenal, this will prevent campingfrom above. The thing about this stae is that people play safely against ICs, so there are not platforms to exploit their bad air movement.
)Unfavorable
Yoshi Story - 1 Peach´s fair = Nana offstage
Dreamland- Take a 2nd wild guess
Everything else- In this MU ICs should go for the offensive, so should be based on your playstyle, still unfavorable, thought)
------------------------------Captain Falcon-----------------------------
//This is a char that is now seen as unfavorable ICs Mu but top ICs players are most likely to win. Well timed knee is impossible to shield grab. Stay alert when Captain throw or you will die by fair//
)Favorable
Final Destination if you guess correctly you can hit him with disjointed hammer and do a tech chase.
)Even
He will just try to land aerials
)Unfavorable
Dreamland (Isn't easy to catch him up, so he will win the neutral. Also C. Falcon can refresh jump with down B)
--------------------------------Samus--------------------------------
//Samus always goes for missile spam. Samus is good controlling space so your shieldl will be almost always small. Samus lives forverer if you dont go for the wobble.//
)Even
Yoshi Story (ICs mains usually bring Samus here to try to catch)
Finall Destination (More difficult for Samus to cancel missile´s ending lag)
)Unfavorable
Everything else
Dreamland Samus already lives forever. Don´t help her.
Battlefield isn't so bad but can missile spam easily .
Fountain of dreams can live with extender, also everything from the MU packed
Pokémon Staidum Samus can tech everything here, missile spam, slow down the game gives time to charge neutral b....
--------------------------------(Dr.) Mario--------------------------------
//Mario and his alter ego have three options in neutral: wavedash dsmash, grab and fair. ICs downsmashes can show them who rules. Doc will spam pills more and if the Mario player is skill enough, he can double upB.//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- What I haven't say about this stage? ICs players well known for their neutral game so keep it in mind
Pokemon Staidum.- transforms will slow them down and can help to chase hem with uair. Also you can tech his attemps to kill you with a random smash attack.
)Even
Trust your instincts
)Unfavorable
Yoshi Story is good for Marios because they are reckless and small stages can help with that playstyle, with Doc isn't
--------------------------------Ganondorf--------------------------------
//Ganon´s neutral is just f-air,, as its shield stun wont let you shield grab him, try to bait then grab/ or approach first with double jab or ftilt. Upsmash is a guaranteed combo starter. Feel free to do grab combos //
)Favorable
Fountain of dreams ts a better option than battlefield since is easier to wavedash and a little easy to recover
)Even
Yoshi´s Story is easier for ganon to maintain pressure, but is also good for you to kill him and catch him in platfoms. At low % go for strong hits if you want, hes that slow.
)Unfavorable
Dreamland makes it possible for ganon to recover with down b and he doesn't need much to kill Nana.
--------------------------------Luigi--------------------------------
//Has an easy time separating the climbers. Will camp, use aerials mostly, but everything separates ICs. If you cant wobble, its most likely to lose this MU. Go for uairs in offensive low % play. In defensive mode, watch out for his wavedash approaches and try to catch him landing when you see him in the air wout challenging him//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- a staple in ICs arsenal, this will prevent camping
Pokemon Stadium.- transformations will slow him down and random upsmash is ok
)Even
Yoshi Story.- hindering Luigi´s recovery and random kills are a good idea
)Unfavorable
Everything else if you cant wobble; if you can, is likely even
--------------------------------Yoshi--------------------------------
//Is very easy to him to separate Nana. Yoshi´s movement depends on platforms so try tu punish it. Backdash into neutral B is good agaisnt Yoshi since is slow in the ground. Amsa has never lose to an ICs player. At low % you can down throw to upsmash//
)Favorable
Final Destination.- the less platforms, the worst for Yoshi
)Even
Pokemon Stadium.- Two platform far make Yoshi slower, but transformations help him, so put you in a situation where your opponent can mess up his landings.
Dreamland.- try to catch Yoshi here is hard, killing him, harder, egg spam dealing is imposible, go for this if you allowed to wobble. However yoshi´s movement is more limited here, and you can escape egg staling on the ledge. If Yoshi wants to go to the uppest platform it will have to use the other platforms or use his double jump, wich yu can convert to a kill.
)Unfavorable
Yoshi Story.- Its size is perfect for Yoshi´s movement since platforms are very close. And its downsmash will kill youlike nothing.
Fountain of Dreams.- platforms move and are so low to the ground you can up smash. Yoshi can egg spam from whatever point. And also, it can use every platform combination, but ICs can not.
Battlefield.- everything with platforms is in Yoshi´s favor. Try to catch w upairs. One of main reasons this MU is bad is beacause ICs can attack at 45º , and yoshi finds openings with aerials at that angle. So keep moving and if you find yourself cornered, escape with help of the platforms, you can escape wavedashing into the platforms, or wait for Yoshi to go up, then shield dropping.
--------------------------------Donkey Kong--------------------------------
//Think about DK as a Marth and you will win. Desyncs will keep you safe. Don´t challenge him from above//
)Favorable
Everything
)Unfavorable
Well, there´s a thing, Dreamland can help his spacing and retreat him for charge neutral B
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