Smash Wii U I STILL haven't transitioned from Brawl

[genesis_SOC]

Things that consistently make me lose and I never seem to learn/improve upon:

1. There's too few recovery frames in this game, everything my enemies do is safe and unpunishable while everything I do is never safe and always punishable
2. Everything seems to have landing lag, being the air always means you get grabbed, no matter what attack or character you're using unless you're my enemy then you never have landing lag and you can never get grabbed and always roll away or land just far away enough that you're never punished no matter what
3. There's not enough push back on shield, so enemies who shield your forward smash while they're against the ledge don't get pushed off so then you get punished, however if you try this then they always punish you for shielding
4. Spot dodge only works for your enemies, never for you
5. Rolls are unpunishable even when you predict them, unless you're my enemy. They always perfect shield you instead of properly being punished
6. Every character always has priority over you even when you switch characters to theirs and they use your old one
7. This game is way too much on patience defense passive waiting baiting never rushing in blindly being aggressive forcing making plays reacting as you go using quick judgement fast decision making. I hear only Sheik/Capt. Falcon can do that in this game, which is stupid because I made Link/Ike/Toon Link/Pit/Lucario/Samus/many others work like that in Brawl competitively

I've been playing Smash 4 Wii U since it came out, albeit not as much as I normally would have if it wasn't for these reasons. I'm trying to give it another shot because I'm happy Roy has returned and Cloud is coming but it's still nothing like what I want it to be, which is an aggressive quick thinking game that you pick who you want and "make it work." I totally accept I'm bad at Smash 4 and I need to improve, but I don't know how. I'm not getting any better. I'm losing consistently to anyone with half a brain and now I'm almost a year behind metas and combo discoveries.

I play a variety of characters, mostly Link, Ike, Robin and Roy in this game. I like Falco, too. I refuse to play Sheik or Capt. Falcon, and I want to constantly rush down to a reasonable degree. Limited zoning.

What should I do? I just want to stomp For Glory 1vs1 all day and do some tournies every now and then until I gitgud to play real comp and actually enjoy this game. I just don't know how to improve and I'm stuck right now, because I'm still living in Brawl days where you're always in the air with lagless attacks. If I just stay on the ground this game mostly it still doesn't work for me.

 

[ForteX]

All of your problems sound like latency. Stop playing For Glory.

 

[LancerStaff]

Things that consistently make me lose and I never seem to learn/improve upon:

1. There's too few recovery frames in this game, everything my enemies do is safe and unpunishable while everything I do is never safe and always punishable
2. Everything seems to have landing lag, being the air always means you get grabbed, no matter what attack or character you're using unless you're my enemy then you never have landing lag and you can never get grabbed and always roll away or land just far away enough that you're never punished no matter what
3. There's not enough push back on shield, so enemies who shield your forward smash while they're against the ledge don't get pushed off so then you get punished, however if you try this then they always punish you for shielding
4. Spot dodge only works for your enemies, never for you
5. Rolls are unpunishable even when you predict them, unless you're my enemy. They always perfect shield you instead of properly being punished
6. Every character always has priority over you even when you switch characters to theirs and they use your old one
7. This game is way too much on patience defense passive waiting baiting never rushing in blindly being aggressive forcing making plays reacting as you go using quick judgement fast decision making. I hear only Sheik/Capt. Falcon can do that in this game, which is stupid because I made Link/Ike/Toon Link/Pit/Lucario/Samus/many others work like that in Brawl competitively

I've been playing Smash 4 Wii U since it came out, albeit not as much as I normally would have if it wasn't for these reasons. I'm trying to give it another shot because I'm happy Roy has returned and Cloud is coming but it's still nothing like what I want it to be, which is an aggressive quick thinking game that you pick who you want and "make it work." I totally accept I'm bad at Smash 4 and I need to improve, but I don't know how. I'm not getting any better. I'm losing consistently to anyone with half a brain and now I'm almost a year behind metas and combo discoveries.

I play a variety of characters, mostly Link, Ike, Robin and Roy in this game. I like Falco, too. I refuse to play Sheik or Capt. Falcon, and I want to constantly rush down to a reasonable degree. Limited zoning.

What should I do? I just want to stomp For Glory 1vs1 all day and do some tournies every now and then until I gitgud to play real comp and actually enjoy this game. I just don't know how to improve and I'm stuck right now, because I'm still living in Brawl days where you're always in the air with lagless attacks. If I just stay on the ground this game mostly it still doesn't work for me.

1. Only a different character can really fix that.

2. Again, that's character dependent. If you want stronger landing options then you need a character change. If you want stronger landing options for the character you're using then you need to practice.

3. Shield pushback isn't something I every really noticed a difference in...

4. Spot dodges are noticeably worse, yes, but generally they're fairly standardized in SSB4.

5. Again, pick a different character or practice. Very few characters just outright lose to back rolls but naturally some deal with them better then others.

6. There's a lot of "when I do this I lose but when they do it they win" in your post, and honestly that comes down to learning the game.

7. Plenty of characters can push an offense properly, especially compared to Brawl. If you were winning with offense in Brawl with any of those characters you mentioned your opponents couldn't of even been decent at the game, to be honest.

If you're looking to get good then from the sounds of it you're playing on autopilot the entire time. This doesn't work against patient opponents, even in Melee. You should be actively thinking about what you're doing and how the opponent will react. If you're not then even if you're using Sheik's Fair you're going to be punished hard.

If you're looking for proper rushdown characters then none of the characters you played or play as remotely apply. There's also Fox, MK, and Mario depending on how you really describe rushdown.

 

[a dog]

I don't know what to say, man. Gotta either pick a second main who can help you to attain victory more easily or just keep practicing with Link until you can one day adjust to Smash 4's differences.

The good news is, Link is better in Smash 4 than he was in Brawl.

 

[genesis_SOC]

All of your problems sound like latency. Stop playing For Glory.

I guess this could be it. But I want to play FG and stomp bads all day. D: That's like, the #1 fun thing to do in any game: pub stomp. I'm just the bad currently, and I'm not improving.

1. Only a different character can really fix that.

2. Again, that's character dependent. If you want stronger landing options then you need a character change. If you want stronger landing options for the character you're using then you need to practice.

3. Shield pushback isn't something I every really noticed a difference in...

4. Spot dodges are noticeably worse, yes, but generally they're fairly standardized in SSB4.

5. Again, pick a different character or practice. Very few characters just outright lose to back rolls but naturally some deal with them better then others.

6. There's a lot of "when I do this I lose but when they do it they win" in your post, and honestly that comes down to learning the game.

7. Plenty of characters can push an offense properly, especially compared to Brawl. If you were winning with offense in Brawl with any of those characters you mentioned your opponents couldn't of even been decent at the game, to be honest.

If you're looking to get good then from the sounds of it you're playing on autopilot the entire time. This doesn't work against patient opponents, even in Melee. You should be actively thinking about what you're doing and how the opponent will react. If you're not then even if you're using Sheik's Fair you're going to be punished hard.

If you're looking for proper rushdown characters then none of the characters you played or play as remotely apply. There's also Fox, MK, and Mario depending on how you really describe rushdown.

I dunno', I won quite a few comp matches in Brawl. I mean look at Izaw's Link for instance, he made it work very well and he didn't play against bads. I certainly wasn't as good as Izaw but you can get the idea. I don't want to pick a different character, I want these characters to work better for me. I think you're right about auto pilot, maybe I just need more experience in 4 so I know how to predict and punish better. It seems like I get punished for anything even when I do something that I think is safe. Which, to me, nothing is safe I do but everything my enemy does is safe. Can you help me understand more on how to improve on that? Because like I said, I'm not learning anything new here, I'm not making any progress on improving, I've been stuck for months.

How do I make Link, Ike, and/or Roy work as rush down? Obviously I can understand Robin would never do that, which is why I probably win the most with Robin and Link since I do focus more on passive boring zoning defensive play with them and I hate it.

I don't know what to say, man. Gotta either pick a second main who can help you to attain victory more easily or just keep practicing with Link until you can one day adjust to Smash 4's differences.

The good news is, Link is better in Smash 4 than he was in Brawl.

That's the thing, I don't want to switch, these are the characters I like. I already had to give up Pit, Toon Link and Lucario since I can't seem to make them work at all in Smash 4 when I'm great at them in Brawl. I'm also a million times better with Brawl Link than Smash 4 Link, I know everyone says he's low tier in Brawl and mid tier in Smash 4 and I can agree, but my own play style no longer works which was a lot of nair jab grab (completely safe in Brawl) and Boomerang which doesn't quite work as well in this one.

 

[FalKoopa]

If you're looking to stomp FG scrubs, spam your arrows and bombs, and roll around quite a bit.
FG is an odd place where these bad tactics can actually work and yield results.

Seriously though, don't make a habit of these or you'll wind up as a pretty bad player offline.

 

[genesis_SOC]

But I said clearly I don't want to be a defensive zoner, I want to be aggressive with these characters and constantly rush down.

 

[LancerStaff]

I dunno', I won quite a few comp matches in Brawl. I mean look at Izaw's Link for instance, he made it work very well and he didn't play against bads. I certainly wasn't as good as Izaw but you can get the idea. I don't want to pick a different character, I want these characters to work better for me. I think you're right about auto pilot, maybe I just need more experience in 4 so I know how to predict and punish better. It seems like I get punished for anything even when I do something that I think is safe. Which, to me, nothing is safe I do but everything my enemy does is safe. Can you help me understand more on how to improve on that? Because like I said, I'm not learning anything new here, I'm not making any progress on improving, I've been stuck for months.

How do I make Link, Ike, and/or Roy work as rush down? Obviously I can understand Robin would never do that, which is why I probably win the most with Robin and Link since I do focus more on passive boring zoning defensive play with them and I hate it.



That's the thing, I don't want to switch, these are the characters I like. I already had to give up Pit, Toon Link and Lucario since I can't seem to make them work at all in Smash 4 when I'm great at them in Brawl. I'm also a million times better with Brawl Link than Smash 4 Link, I know everyone says he's low tier in Brawl and mid tier in Smash 4 and I can agree, but my own play style no longer works which was a lot of nair jab grab (completely safe in Brawl) and Boomerang which doesn't quite work as well in this one.

Izaw I think played more like SSB4 Marth or Roy then proper rushdown, so more that he keeps throwing things out as a guess and since he kept winning neutral with it, it gives the appearance of rushdown. He's so far ahead of everybody else to the point where he practically came into the match knowing what the opponent would do. Now while this would still apply in SSB4, getting to that point requires extreme effort. You're much better off playing a character more fit for it.

How to improve? Well, if we knew a fast and easy way to improve then I don't think we would of had ZeRo winning every tournament he entered for almost a year. If you're still stuck in autopilot then you just need to think about what you're doing. When you lose, save the replay and pay attention to what happens when you play the neutral. I mean, from a pure options standpoint, Link isn't much better at rushdown then Robin. Neither work as rushdown characters due to poor movement speed, bad dash attacks, and terrible dash grabs. Essentially, you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Ike and Roy are more octogon-shaped peg and round hole. They mostly play at close range and play a lot of boxing, so to speak. They just lack a ton of really safe options, although they have good reward. ...Well, to be brutally honest again, Ike is above and beyond the best character you play in Smash 4. Roy is pretty frustrating to play compared to Ike because once he loses neutral he loses hard. And compared to Ike his only real advantage is closing stocks slightly better. You're probably going to need a different character to properly enjoy Smash 4.

Toon Link does play very differently from Brawl, and he's quite a bit worse, but he's a character you like and he plays more offensive. Only instead of normals it's with projectiles. Although his grab is similarly bad, it doesn't matter as much because you're not playing up close. I'm no expert on the character so I could be miss-selling him pretty bad. Although I do know that he takes a bit of investment, so I'd look before I'd leap.

Pit though, I am an expert on. You're right in saying he's completely different from Brawl, but he doesn't play anywhere as defensive as before. He can actually play rushdown to an extent, being that his options from a dash are great. Dash attack has tons of range and is safe when properly spaced, dash grab is also great, and he has plenty of aerial options including a Nair that beats out spot dodges, is very safe on shield, can't be perfect shielded and autocancels from a SH. Although in order to succeed with him you need to learn how to play many different styles and not just offense. More importantly though, he requires good fundamentals to succeed. Since he can't really cheese opponents out, only un-cheese others, you can't autopilot your way to victory in almost any situation. Basically, I'm recommending Pit to you in effort to make you a stronger player.

 

[genesis_SOC]

Thank you for the wonderful reply.

Every time I try putting some time into Pit, I tend to get poor results from a rush down standpoint. My favorite things from him in Brawl were his dash attack, grab and safe nair options just like you said for Smash 4 but I'm having a harder time with it in Smash 4, but maybe if I practice more I'll learn spacing better. That's the big thing I'm lacking here for 4 from Brawl, is spacing. I don't know what proper spacing is in this game on a per character basis.

I don't have to improve fast, I don't mind spending thousands of hours getting mastery over each character I love, and I don't mind losing as I learn, but that's the thing, I haven't been learning. I'll focus more on specific spacing per character and try to adjust to 4's differences with that. I'll give Pit a lot more practice, especially with his dash options since I love dashing so much as a rush down.

What are some good ways to finish off enemies with Pit in Smash 4? Forward throw was one of my favorite tools in Brawl but it definitely got weaker in 4. Up smash and the first hit of down smash also seem much weaker, as well as forward smash, really.

 

[FalKoopa]

But I said clearly I don't want to be a defensive zoner, I want to be aggressive with these characters and constantly rush down.

Link isn't meant to be that aggressive though. It's no wonder you're having a hard time.

Either change your methods or your character. Kind of like you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[LancerStaff]

Thank you for the wonderful reply.

Every time I try putting some time into Pit, I tend to get poor results from a rush down standpoint. My favorite things from him in Brawl were his dash attack, grab and safe nair options just like you said for Smash 4 but I'm having a harder time with it in Smash 4, but maybe if I practice more I'll learn spacing better. That's the big thing I'm lacking here for 4 from Brawl, is spacing. I don't know what proper spacing is in this game on a per character basis.

I don't have to improve fast, I don't mind spending thousands of hours getting mastery over each character I love, and I don't mind losing as I learn, but that's the thing, I haven't been learning. I'll focus more on specific spacing per character and try to adjust to 4's differences with that. I'll give Pit a lot more practice, especially with his dash options since I love dashing so much as a rush down.

What are some good ways to finish off enemies with Pit in Smash 4? Forward throw was one of my favorite tools in Brawl but it definitely got weaker in 4. Up smash and the first hit of down smash also seem much weaker, as well as forward smash, really.

Yeah, most everything of Pit's has been reworked. It's no surprise he'd feel alien. Pit has more finishers and they're safer, but they're not as powerful as his old Bair and Glair. Dsmash is weaker on the first hit but faster and the second hit is nearly horizontal. Fsmash I'm not sure if it's weaker or not but considering it just didn't work in Brawl it's definitely better now. Usmash is much more powerful, as are Fthrow and Fair. Pit also benefits fromm rage significantly so that further makes him more powerful.

Still, it's a stretch to say Pit's a strong rushdown character. We don't have any swordsman characters really capable of rushdown outside of MK who both lacks safety and is more of a butterknifesman or something... So yeah, you've don't got much of a choice.

 

[Wintropy]

Thing is, you can't play these characters in a rushdown style and expect to do as well with them as you would if you played defensively. They're not designed to be played that way, they don't have the tools to do it with the same degree of efficiency that others can. Think of it as getting into a gunfight with a knife in your hand: everybody's shooting at you from a distance and you want to kill them by throwing the knife at them. You probably can beat the other guys if you're very good with the knife, but you're at a disadvantage by trying to make the knife do what it isn't intended to do.

Absurd similes to one side, you're not going to get very far if you try to reshape these characters to fit your own style, especially if your intention is just to beat newbies online. Link doesn't have the kind of moveset, safety, frame data or movement speed to be a rushdown fighter, it's just not realistic. It is possible if you do nothing but dedicate yourself to that kind of gameplan, to the extent that you somehow redefine the very nature of the character, but you're probably not going to do that if you just want to win in a no-stakes environment with weaker players. That kind of redefinition of a character's fundamental nature requires massive dedication and a deep understanding of the game's mechanics - which, no offense, it seems like you don't have.

I'd suggest you do one of three things to overcome this issue:

1. Play Link the way he's intended to be played, i.e. a defensive zoner with a powerful punish game and spammable throwing items for days.

2. Dedicate your entire competitive career to changing the way the Link meta is played, which necessarily involves going to real tournaments and fighting good players.

3. Pick a different character that's better suited to the style you're comfortable with.

Or, y'know, you can just go back to playing Brawl. Nobody's stopping you. If you'd be more comfortable with that, go for it! Even if you want to stick with Smash 4, a change of scenery tends to be a good idea every now and again; do other things and think about how you feel when you return to Smash 4, maybe you'll decide to do something different in that case.

EDIT: Or just pick Pit. Pit's great.

 

[a dog]

Or, y'know, you can just go back to playing Brawl. Nobody's stopping you. If you'd be more comfortable with that, go for it!

I don't think Link was good at rushdown in Brawl either though, was he? I think patient and defensive play is what the game designers have always intended him to be used for.

 

[High Entia]

But I said clearly I don't want to be a defensive zoner, I want to be aggressive with these characters and constantly rush down.

Brawl and Smash 4 may seem similar when you look at them but, in actuality, they're competely different games. Smash 4 isn't another Brawl just like Brawl wasn't another Melee and Melee wasn't another 64. In my opinion, I think you should start out by changing your mindset. You're currently thinking "Oh, since I can do this in Brawl, I should be able to do it in this game" and that's completely false. Your main is Link, right? Okay, so do this. Don't play Link like you would in Brawl, thinking that it should work. Treat Link as a completely new character. See what's good and bad for Link in this game and do that. It may require a bit of labbing to find this out, but it'll make you better.

Also, you said you like fast and aggressive play. Smash 4 does have that to offer, but the only character you said you play that really fits that criteria is Roy. It seems that each character was made with a specific sort of playstyle in mind. For example, Link was developed to be a defensive and zoning based character. I'd either recommend picking up new characters that fit this playstyle or, if you really like using your current characters, see if you can find a way to play more to their strengths. Link doesn't excel with rushdown play. Trying to play aggressive and rushdown with him is like trying to ice skate on thin ice. It has like a 1 in 1000 chance of actually working, if you're lucky enough, but it's more than likely to backfire on you.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Things that consistently make me lose and I never seem to learn/improve upon:

1. There's too few recovery frames in this game, everything my enemies do is safe and unpunishable while everything I do is never safe and always punishable
2. Everything seems to have landing lag, being the air always means you get grabbed, no matter what attack or character you're using unless you're my enemy then you never have landing lag and you can never get grabbed and always roll away or land just far away enough that you're never punished no matter what
3. There's not enough push back on shield, so enemies who shield your forward smash while they're against the ledge don't get pushed off so then you get punished, however if you try this then they always punish you for shielding
4. Spot dodge only works for your enemies, never for you
5. Rolls are unpunishable even when you predict them, unless you're my enemy. They always perfect shield you instead of properly being punished
6. Every character always has priority over you even when you switch characters to theirs and they use your old one
7. This game is way too much on patience defense passive waiting baiting never rushing in blindly being aggressive forcing making plays reacting as you go using quick judgement fast decision making. I hear only Sheik/Capt. Falcon can do that in this game, which is stupid because I made Link/Ike/Toon Link/Pit/Lucario/Samus/many others work like that in Brawl competitively

I've been playing Smash 4 Wii U since it came out, albeit not as much as I normally would have if it wasn't for these reasons. I'm trying to give it another shot because I'm happy Roy has returned and Cloud is coming but it's still nothing like what I want it to be, which is an aggressive quick thinking game that you pick who you want and "make it work." I totally accept I'm bad at Smash 4 and I need to improve, but I don't know how. I'm not getting any better. I'm losing consistently to anyone with half a brain and now I'm almost a year behind metas and combo discoveries.

I play a variety of characters, mostly Link, Ike, Robin and Roy in this game. I like Falco, too. I refuse to play Sheik or Capt. Falcon, and I want to constantly rush down to a reasonable degree. Limited zoning.

What should I do? I just want to stomp For Glory 1vs1 all day and do some tournies every now and then until I gitgud to play real comp and actually enjoy this game. I just don't know how to improve and I'm stuck right now, because I'm still living in Brawl days where you're always in the air with lagless attacks. If I just stay on the ground this game mostly it still doesn't work for me.

Then just play Brawl. No one's stopping you.

Except for Melee players

 

[Duck SMASH!]

If you want HEAVY rushdown, you're going to have to choose someone who is capable of that offensive pressure.
Falcon and Sheik just happen to be great examples of what you're describing. Fox and Sonic are also good examples. If you have the time, Pikachu can also do this.
If you refuse to budge, Roy, Ike, and Pit are the closest you'll get.
Ike cannot completely rush down though. He can play offensively, like a slower but stronger Marth, and Roy needs to rely more on mixups and his speed to nail his heavy punishes and kill.
I don't know anything about Pit.

If you REALLY want serious rushdown though I'd recommend going back to Brawl or picking up Melee. The meta there is HEAVILY offense oriented, and I think you'll like it there more than Sm4sh's current meta.