I make Fox look like the worst character in the game. What is the most important thing as Fox?

[Piefrenzy]

So, first off I started getting into Smash competitively by playing PM about six or seven months ago. I spent a bit of time learning the basics until it all felt pretty natural. I played Sonic a bunch, went to one tournament, got bopped super hard, then didn't go to another for a while because I knew I needed more practice. No PM tournaments ended up being close enough for me to want to attend, so it got thrown aside sadly.

Fast forward a couple months, and when I was putting stuff down as a hobbies for a class I listed Smash Bros because why not. Someone told me there is a group that meets on my campus every week, and I ended up looking them up and going a couple weeks later. It was advertised as Melee, and I was getting more interested in Melee ever since Apex. I end up going, picking Fox because I played him as a kid and I know he is at the top of the tier list, and proceed to get completely bopped by everyone. Like, until they started styling and swagging on me, I could barely take a stock. Figured this would happen, so I went back and practiced a bunch.

I was super embarrassed, so I didn't go back for a few weeks. During that time, I practiced Fox a bunch. I seriously think I practice Drillshine->WD->USmash for like 8 hours one day. So I go back, get bopped just as hard. In fact, more people were there this time, and there was no one who didn't bop me. Dudes would play each other with Fox, Falco, or Sheik then switch to Ganondorf or Donkey Kong just to style on me. I will never forget getting 4 stocked by the Donkey Kong who just SHFFL'd UAirs on me all Green Ranger like.

Still salty and upset, so I come back and practice more. But then I realized, what exactly am I practicing, and why? So I sat there and thought about it. Did some Googling. Recently found this janky guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3rVxV3c2lg. Don't know how good it is but whatever.

I'm curious, what should I prioritize when practicing? I've gone through Shine OOS, WD OOS (which I didn't see anyone use for w/e reason when I was spectating), Drillshine->WD->USmash, Shinegrab, USmash OOS, Double/Multishine, and what I've heard called the "Nairplane".

But, I felt like I never got to use any of this stuff. I just got bopped around the screen until I died a bunch. My first stock would be alright, like I would manage to tack on enough percent to get them a little below kill range, but then I would not be able to do anything the rest of the set. Do I literally just need to camp in front of my TV for hundreds of more hours? Or am I missing something? Do I just need to play more people to get used to fighting games? I come from playing lots of WoW arenas, Starcraft, and LoL. I've had a pretty decent ranking on all of those at one point or another. I haven't ever competitively played games like this.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

I haven't seen you play so I can't be sure but based on what you're telling tech isn't the issue.

Tech is only half the game. Think about how you approach/retreat and when. If you notice a pattern try mixing it up.

Most new players have terroble exploitable weaknesses. When you find out what they are it should be a lot easier to not get 4 stocked. Try asking the people that 4 stock you what your weaknesses are. They 4 stock you so they at least have an idea.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I haven't seen you play so I can't be sure but based on what you're telling tech isn't the issue.

Tech is only half the game. Think about how you approach/retreat and when. If you notice a pattern try mixing it up.

Most new players have terroble exploitable weaknesses. When you find out what they are it should be a lot easier to not get 4 stocked. Try asking the people that 4 stock you what your weaknesses are. They 4 stock you so they at least have an idea.

Great answer, tech is only half the game, mindgames and stuff comes along as you get better.

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

Dont avoid these tournaments just because you get bopped. If you never go to tournaments you may be able to tripleshine grab everybody there but you wont know how to approach a human player with even the most basic of strategies. Going to tournaments and playing real people is the single most important thing you can do now. Personally, I go to a tournament every Tuesday and Saturday (unless I cant get off work at my ****ty job) and i play against anybody i can on the weekdays. Play every day and practice with real people, because it sounds like you have your tech skill on point. Play against good players and ask them what you are doing wrong and what you can fix. Chances are there are a lot of people in your area who play fox so you shouldn't have trouble finding someone that can help you. Keep up that tech skill practice, but don't forget that this game is also about outsmarting your opponent.

 

[Vorde]

It sounds like you and I have the opposite problem. I don't have the tech skill I want in the game to get where I want to be, but I have the mental side fairly understood. Of course with being a new smasher and not having a lot of tournaments to go to (besides my monthly tournament series I TO) there isn't a lot of serious or competitive play.

 

[Evoke]

fox is the most common matchup so everyone grinds it out at some point, he's also extremely easily comboed
watch out for:
illusion on stage - if they read it it's so easily punished literally any attack will hit you
bad firefox angles
preemptive jumping - when you get hit offstage you might have a reactionary jump before you recover, it's a free stock generally
bad dash dancing - if you're dash dancing and then you get hit you're not dash dancing effectively
random aerial approaches
general spacing issues
shl/shdl spacing especially - some people do it too close and get punished for it
no di - if you get comboed by only uairs by dk you're probably not mixing up your di very well (also try shining out of it)

also, just try playing slower. don't go too fast with all your tech or you'll psych yourself out. i found it very helpful to spend more of the game not doing random tech but instead laser/dash dance while thinking about how the match is going and what i can do to win.

 

[princesswill]

I think Evoke kinda hit the nail on the head, no matter who you are if you're a competitive smasher you know your characters match-up with fox. it's fundamental to even trying to compete. and Jim Jam is right too, I keep seeing this attitude from people where they go to their first, get bodied, and tell themselves they need more practice before they go to another. such is not the case, when you get bopped at tournaments you learn more about the game than you could ever dream of learning alone. as a new player you just need to get the salt out of you and see tournaments for the learning experience they are.

 

[Sheepomg]

Tech skill is, by far, less significant than the mental aspects of the game. Practicing alone does nothing to improve your mental abilities versus other players.

 

[Double Helix]

The most important things I've learned about Fox from maining Ness (Fox is my secondary, though I may switch to playing him) is that the things that are important to be good on Ness is better on Fox because his everything is better. The first thing to work on in general is something you can only practice by getting bodied a lot. The neutral game (spacing, zoning, and approach) is probably the most important thing you can work on. Go out there. Get bopped. Watch people play. Ask questions. Another thing that may help would be watching top 8 at big tournaments and study their movement. Don't be afraid to watch videos from 2008 either. The fundamentals were the same.

 

[Double Helix]

I understand not liking getting bopped. But I encourage you to go to tournaments. Get bopped. A lot. Learn matchups by getting bopped and asking questions. Watch the top 8 of big tournaments. The commentators really help a lot. And you can slow down videos to really see what they are doing.

As far as what you should work on and ask questions about, in my opinion, the neutral game is the most important thing to work on. Sadly, that can only be done while facing humans. The neutral game consists of (primarily), wavedashing, wavelanding, and dash-dancing. You can TRY to practice dash-dancing (and incorporating wave-dashing into dash-dancing) against level 1 AI. They walk toward you and (usually) jab. So you can dash-dance in and out of their range and eventually incorporate wavedashing into it. Remember, nothing beats practicing against people.

I feel like knowing what to work on will help your mental game. Don't be afraid to ask. People generally won't make fun of you at all for being bad if you have fun and wish to improve (fun being more important). I know getting bopped isn't fun. Seeing your improvement is very rewarding though. So work hard. Have fun. Get to know who bops you. You are playing Fox, so you will eventually bop them.

Edit: Sorry about the double post. I was in class so I gave the short version, but it didn't show up so I gave a better response when I had more time. Lo, and behold, now they are both there.

 

[AscendantAquila]

If you have read CunningKitsune's guide, he is correct in saying that knowledge is so important for Fox (As it is for everyone). Fox has the tools to play in a very controlling manner, so having the knowledge of what your opponent can do in situations as well as your own option is a gigantic advantage for Fox. The easiest way from a low level to mid level player is to have lots of knowledge about characters, specifically the top 8 plus like Samus and Ganondorf and minus ICs. Tech skill will honestly just come with practice and time, and losing is not bad at all when losing so long as you learn from it.

The neutral game like Double Helix said has to be learned through playing human opponents. Work on movement, good movement is key to being a good player.

Just don't get down on yourself for losing and get out to lots of events and talk to players. Plus study each character like stated before, so learning the options of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Falcon, Puff, Marth are most important, ICs are not that important unless you live in NorCal, then you should also learn to fight Samus and Ganon because there are lots of Samus players in Norcal and like everyone has a pocket Ganon.

 

[SuperShus]

Alright man listen here.

I've been playing fox for almost two years now, and I got a lot better in just the last months and let me tell you why.

I've been practicing tech skill basically non stop since two Septembers ago. Now I have almost all the practical fox tech there is - yet I still only got 7th last time I went to a local because techskill is pretty much only 10% of smash.

I know a lot of people above say it's half the battle or whatever, but it really isn't.

The point of techskill is to increase your options. If you pick the wrong options, having more of them does literally nothing good for you.

Picking what to do and executing sounds like a half and half scenario but the reality is that techskill is so insignificant to smash itself.

Ever since you're born, your brain is used to trying to turn simulated action into mechanical motion. When you learn you have control over your body at a few months(babies start staring at their hands a lot at this stage), to when we walk and run and talk and play sports and instruments... this is a natural process. It's true that our brains also recognize situations naturally and try to come up with the correct solutions. However smash is so fast that if you rely only on your instincts for this part of the game you're liable to be read to death and back over and over until all your stocks are gone.

Yet leaving techskill to unconscious mental processes is perfect. It leaves plenty of active mental power for deciding what you want to happen - not explicitly, but in the form of, time to be aggressive, gotta watch for what s/he's doing, s/he's being really reckless right now time to camp until s/he falls into my lap, whatever...

The decisions you make come from basically, how do I not be in danger - and how do I endanger my opponent.
Don't be fooled by people on r/smashbros or even on smashboards! There's no way to play that guarantees you win. At best TAS style play can only result in a stale mate. Once you factor in the 12-15 frames of reaction time people have, you'll find that literally every choice you make has a counter. There is something that your opponent can do that beats what you're doing at any time unless you're actively comboing-chaingrabbing them.

If you want to kiss of death people to death with techskill, you might want to study westballz. But falco's game is mostly about zoning and controlling, something that fox just pretty much just as well but very differently. So if it's fox you want, I suggest you understand when to do what.

Which, is basically all smash bros is, hell, that's all anything is. So although it sounds like a monstrous task... just pick a matchup - I suggest fox dittos, I bet you can find a friend who plays fox - then study it to death. Understand what is safe in neutral in certain situations ( above/below the other player, crouchcancel %s, center-stage, by edge ) If you find a fox player, he'll already have a good idea of what to do against fox since he'll play fox. Then just branch out. Fox knowledge extends to falco some - so you'll probably have the most trouble with sheik and marth after that. Spend half the time you were practicing tech watching matches and writing down what moves pros use at what percents against what characters. Once you can shffl->shine, wavedash, jc grab - the easy stuff - decision making is already more important than tech. So figure out what moves you want to use when, and what moves follow up on other moves, and after a lot of hard work you'll get better.

There's no short cut, there's no secret. There's a butt-ton of breadth and depth to this game and you can't really get the answer to questions like this directly from the internet. But I hope you know how to learn what to do when.

If you're like me, you'll still get excited about crazy tech and you'll try and learn it - but don't obsess over it. That's a fun thing to show off once you get on stream, which you can only do if you've nailed down some solid fundamentals.

gl hf <3