I dare you to dair.

[Rui]

I just started watching a few ZSS videos to up my game. I've been maining her from day one, hour one. She's an awesome character, but I think I'm getting into a predictable rut. Specifically, the usage of certain moves to the point where they stale out and you can see them coming from miles away. Mostly, it's her dair and fsmash.
I know that her dair is extremely risky, with crazy lag time when you hit the ground and the glaring possibility that you just might fly down the stage and die. But I can't seem to stop using it, it's just so powerful. I've watched about ten combo videos of her so far, and she used dair maybe twice at best in all of these combined. In areas where I would have daired to both slam the opponent down and land quickly, other players jump, up-special, and f-special. It usually kills, but it just seems frightening to pull off. Anyway, I guess what I'm asking is, would you ever recommend using dair? I mean, I always saw it as one of those awesome moves that were applicable in many situations, but other ZSS mains seem to weigh the disadvantages over the benefits of the move. Is it a good move?
As a side note, since we're on the same topic, occasionally dair comes out extremely slowly (this happened to me a few times offline, so it can't be connection lag or anything like that) and just stops outright maybe halfway through the descent. Is this meant to happen, or is it some sort of glitch? It really screws me up when it happens.
Onto the forward smash: it's a relatively slow move with average range. It's only decently strong, and the only real use I can see for it is after a dsmash (or pitfall or whatnot), when the opponent is stunned and you can pull it off no sweat. I'd say that I definitely overuse it. Instead of that, should I use her forward special? Its speed isn't much different, but assuming we're talking about the same situation, it would probably work better, wouldn't it?
You know what? Hell, I'm just gonna cover more moves.
Her down special is pretty uncooperative with me. I've only spiked with it maybe two, three times. Sure, it's great for avoiding attack, walljumping, and all that jazz, but is it even important to perform that second kick? I mean, surely she has a better spiking move (I can't get the angle/timing down pat with her up special, and you die first when you dair anyway). When I down special, I see it as more of a counterattack than an attack. Like, down special into forward special or something.
I'd ask about uair by itself, but I'm gonna go for the combo I see used by just about every ZSS main in the very beginning of those videos. It's something of a chuck Power Suit part repeatedly --> spam stun gun --> down throw --> uair --> up special --> forward special. It's amazing. It's such a deadly, fearsome combo that I'm afraid to try pulling it off. Which brings me to my point. Couldn't your opponent simply DI out of the throw, which screws up your timing, or DI to the side from your uair, screwing with your up special completely? How exactly does the timing for the up special work to slam your adversary down?
Last one, I promise. The stun gun: great weapon, or hindrance? Personally, I just about never used it (excluding the best opportunity--in a 3-man brawl, while the other two players duke it out, you just short hop in there and let a fully-charged one loose) and saw it as more of a useless move, as the dsmash replicates the same effect for a longer time, with the only downfall being its extremely limited range. The stun gun still has a fairly limited range, even fully-charged. I thought it was her weakest attack, the black sheep of her moveset, but in all these videos, it's spammed repeatedly for incredible effect. Now, I can see it being used to control your opponent, but it just doesn't seem very potent to that effect. In that mind game, I honestly would choose to just run into the shot, as it does minimal damage and a non-charged one would stun you for how long, half a second? But, seeing the situation, wouldn't you choose to utilize a strong move, such as a charged forward smash or special or throw? By the time I try to pull those moves off, the other player is out of the stun already. And I hate having to stun someone, feel that split-second of pride, then end up jabbing at them. But I'm probably just overthinking it. I just can't understand how the stun gun mind game works out.

Dang, that was one long wall of text. I apologize. I'm just bored and trying to redesign my strategies.

 

[Rui]

Actually, a lot of my questions (were they even questions? I'm not really sure what I was asking anymore...) were answered in this topic: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145925

But either way, tips would be nice.

 

[The Great Leon]

I Dair rarely, so it isn't usually expected. Generally when I'm coming back from being juggled, though on even rarer occasions I use it offensively. If you don't hit with it, you're getting hurt. Plain and simple. However, another good time to use it is after and Up B.

I think slow Dairs have to do with upward momentum. Theres some "Advanced Technique" that I never read up on about slowing the speed yourself? Dunno.

I favor Forward B over Forward Smash. B is a scarier move for the opponent, it kills way earlier. I use F Smash after Down Smash most of the time, but sometimes the opportunity arises and I use it randomly. Forward B feels faster, and I find myself getting punished for missing a F Smash more than a F B.

Down B. Practice. Learn the controls, learn the spacing. Practice Up B too. (Dair spike is a horrible idea.) There's nothing wrong with doing an attack that doesn't link into another attack. I use Down B to mix up my ground game, and to edge guard. Its certainly not a bad move, maybe its just difficult to learn.

Up Air is awesome. Her short hop is so big that if you try and hit any aerial while rising it will go over Wario's head (I tried in 1/4 speed :/) but you can whiff and Up Air and que another for the descent that will hit. Basically you can cut out the timing by doing 2 in a row. Up Air has a nice hitbox and it hits on the descent. I believe Fastest talks about an 'eddie-spike' in his thread that explains it in better detail.
Don't talk down to yourself. You'll never improve without trying things out and practicing lots. While that string is pretty common and sounds nice, its far from perfect. Down throw can be DI'd, everything save dash-cancelled up smash can be air dodged out of (and even then you better nail it,) and Up Air can be DI'd. I'm still learning Up B, but I hit a beautiful staple string of: dash attack - up tilt - up b - d smash (he DI'd wrong, lucky me) - Forward B - kill - on wifi today. Don't forget to improvise, as DI pretty much negates any easily mimic'd combos like in 2d fighters.

Stun Gun. I love it. Not many people would 'just run into that shot'. If a Fox is camping you on FD, you're going to jump towards him, not dilly-dally in his laser spam. Don't take free damage. Tapped B's are useful for spacing you opponent and short hopped charged blasts are ok. I don't really know what to say. I like the move and its useful, but its no Falco laser from melee. Keep in mind that Neutral B and Down Smash are simliar but different. If you hit a tapped B do a quick attack, like a F Tilt or something. It also ***** certain non-projectile characters, like Sonic.

You loot Wall-of-text.
You recieve 1 Copper.
Heh, it took so long I logged out.

 

[Rui]

This is why I love these boards. I get so much good advice. Thanks a lot.
Yeah, I definitely need to practice my down special. The timing is just different from other moves.
Wait, so you're saying that I should whiff an ascending uair first so that I can use a descending uair? Or do I just wait for the proper timing?
Again, thanks.

 

[anoobis]

crit by wall of text for 999999 damage.

Anyways, I skimmed your post. I use dair a lot cuz I used to main falco and it's an old habit but. if you can space it right sh -> dair; is really unexpected and they don't have time to roll out of it if you've done it properly also both parts of the dair hit

 

[The Great Leon]

Wait, so you're saying that I should whiff an ascending uair first so that I can use a descending uair? Or do I just wait for the proper timing?
Again, thanks.

I'm saying that you can. You can either do a SH Double Up Air, and hit with the descending one; or you can SH and wait for the descent. I've yet to try an in depth study in matches but atm not many people are expecting the second one to come out (not many people expect Up Air to have the hitbox it does). Not only that, but since you have to wait so long to hit with a SH aerial people may try and hit you first. This way you aren't as vulnerable. Just saying there's 2 options for SHing aerials.

 

[bLaiS]

dair - if you space it right and you know your getting both hits out of it you should use it. if theres a slight chance it might miss do not use it. the lag afterwards is too painful.
fsmash - i really dont like fsmash. its sooo weak compared to other fsmashes. i personally only use it when they are too close and fowardb is going to miss, usually after a paralyzer shot or a dsmash. other than that fowardb is superior in every way.
paralyzer - i like it. it keeps distance, mixes up your game, keeps your opponent on his toes. alot of times ill let a fully charged shot go they attempt to jump over it in which case you can Usmash and punish them.

 

[ThePlantiff]

I found using the dair to be effective when you are close to the opponent, but the end lag is risky, I don't know what happens when it gets slow. F-smash sucks. If i have the opponent stunned, I use jab combo(seriously) or dash attack for combos. down-b is extremely useful, it has good knockback whether it is a spike or not.

 

[Kawaii]

Dair's lag is atrocious. I find my self, a lot of times, just using the paralyzer and going for the grab to aerial combos. When I set the tone of the match like that, I normally start running in, cancel my dash with a shield then enter jab combos into an uptilt just to surprise them. Being repetitive isn't bad aslong as you can surprise them - change it up. The dair is too easy to see coming, I'd at most use it once a match or so.

 

[WiNGSPANTT]

I used to play this game Guardian Heroes a lot, and my main was a ninja that had a move almost exactly like Zamus' down B. So, I am addicted to it, even knowing how dangerous it is. Hell, last night I miscalculated the distance and SD'ed on my last stock!

I think a SH dair could prove to have its uses if used infrequently.

Also, dair is very useful in FFA to break up a group fighting beneath you.

 

[MprisM]

Dair is a great move when you learn when to use it, its priority is decent so it cant go through most characters uairs, so you cant simply use it when coming down to end an opponents combo.

The best part about this move is that it hits them upward which sets up for potential comboing, and at the very least gets the opponent away from you. There is a certain amount of spacing you must achieve with this move, too high and they see it coming, too low and they can punish you if you happen to miss.

SH Dair, not so great, this screams fail, using it is not a mindgame or anything, its just a bad decision.

Not sure what I'm saying so to wrap it all up, use this move for punishing ONLY.

Typically people cant punish you for using a bad move if they just got punished by it.

 

[The Great Leon]

Reminds me of a quote from some 'making good tactical decisions' thread I read when I first got here: "Just because your opponent doesn't see it coming, doesn't make it a good idea."

 

[ph00tbag]

Dairs out of shield seem like an interesting way to deal with shield pressure, from what I've seen. Other than that, I try to avoid using dairs. It's very unfortunate that Zamus was essentially robbed of a good move to cover descents in this case.

The slow Dair is the result of upward momentum from a hit and the downward motion of the Dair canceling each other out. For this reason, dair is a good way to avoid getting killed off the top if you're being hit with big upward kill moves.

Fsmash is the kind of move that I save until later in the match. It doesn't kill until over 130%, generally, so I like to save it up until it's really useful. Instead, I tend to use Plasma Whip, as it has less after lag, better range, and a more lasting hitbox. You can also use it in the air.

Flip Jump is interesting. I tend to use it against aggressive edgeguarders to maybe turn a recovery into a spike. I'll also use it to mix up my ground game and for edgeguards, although my favorite edgegard against people with high damage is a uair, because that'll confuse their DI. Flip Jump is definitely a mix-up maneuver, and should be used only occasionally, especially because it's an effective kill move. As for the timing and spacing, learning that will have to come with use. Don't be afraid to lose once in a while if it means you're learning things about the character. That's what Friendlies are for.

Paralyzer is pretty good. I like to use it to mix up my approaches and retreats. It's a very good spacing tool, because most people will make some distance in order to avoid it, and you can press forward on them in order to gain some positional advantage. Plus, if it hits, that's a free few hits. Think in terms of combos when you hit with Paralyzer, because that's an opportunity for you to start some. Like dash attack --> utilt --> whatever. But the most important thing to remember, and this is true for any projectile, it doesn't have to hit for it to have done its job. Generally just having it there is good enough.

As far as combos go, remember that there are almost no guaranteed combos in Brawl, so most of the combos you do will have to come from recognizing patterns in your opponent's DI, and quick responses to changes in those patterns. If your opponent always DIs away out of a dthrow, dash into an usmash, or use an fair, instead. If he DIs out of a Plasma Wire combo, move into techchasing with Plasma Whip or Paralyzer or what have you.

Good luck.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I experimented with her Dair for recovery a little which I know sounds weird. It does have a little horizontal movement and it drops you quickly. Therefore if you are knocked very high above the stage, and just slightly off the edge then this can be a quick way to get back on the stage. However, it is still really laggy and doesn't seem very useful in most cases.

As far as her Fsmash I don't use it much but it does have uses. It is basically a worse Forward B, except that I believe it is less dependent on being sweetspotted. So basically even though it is a long range move, I only use it close up because thats the only time it is better than Forward B. That's just my observation though, so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Metamere]

I posted this information on another thread, but I think it might be more useful here.

I'd have to say that I've found her Dair to be very useful, but not really in the conventional sense. What it is for me is a mobility enhancer. On stages like the Ice Climbers' mountain or Kanto 2 in air mode where you reach terminal velocity and fall slowly with respect to the stage, you can jump up, juggle the opponent, and then Dair back down to the ground quickly. It also gets you out of potential juggles on those stages. Other uses I found are for getting around on much taller, multi-leveled custom stages. The Dair animation ends eventually, and you don't have any lag when you land. It has the longest lag when you use it from a short height. If you use it next to and facing a tall wall above an opening, then you will land in the opening due to the horizontal movement. Another really fun thing I found on the custom stages is that you can use it extremely rapidly while on either the medium or large springboards. They cancel lag and send you up immediately, and also re-center your character. It's just fun to do, since you can vary your pace, and also transition to a different kind of aerial off a bounce. I'm not sure whether it will impress or annoy my friends.

I can also corroborate the effect of losing the downward momentum gain when launched upwards. I didn't notice that it canceled the upward momentum though, so I will have to test that. It could be useful as a fake-out, but I think it is probably just to add some realism, and keep it from getting too powerful. I think if her Dair is used judiciously as an attack, it can be plenty useful.

 

[Rui]

The slow Dair is the result of upward momentum from a hit and the downward motion of the Dair canceling each other out. For this reason, dair is a good way to avoid getting killed off the top if you're being hit with big upward kill moves.

Thank you! I kept using a slower dair that didn't even hit the ground, so I had this sort of "wtf?" expression on my face. It did save me out of many situations, though, so I'm glad you explained it.

Wow, I got a lot of responses to this wall of text. This feels like some sort of ZSS compendium of useful moves. Really, thanks, I'm definitely going to advance my game with some of these tips.

One thing I'm still having trouble with is hitting with her forward special in the air. I can't seem to time this right to hit with the end of the whip in the air in any way. Is it even useful? I can get some combos down pat, but as soon as I get to hitting them in the air (when I can't reach with uair or up special) I sort of just lose the string. Would you recommend me just hold out for the bair or use her down special and try to spike them or anything? Or should I just work out the timing for that?

Haha, the biggest problem I seem to have with Paralyzer (which is a great song =P) is that I either shoot the wrong way or do a forward special instead because I'm in such an offensive rush. I doubt anyone can give me advice about that, as it's my own playing style at fault there; I just wanted to get that one out.

Thanks a bunch, guys.

 

[SagePrime]

I find it good to dair after shrot hopping once in a while when the enemy is at a higher damage. They dont expect it much, and it pushes them far enough away so that you can recover from the lag time.

 

[Kawaii]

After a long weekend of maining her, I have to say I usually only like it to cancel the upwards momentum while protecting yourself from below for a short period. I use it the regular way, once a match at most, normally short hopped.

 

[fkacyan]

Rardair it.

Comon, you know you want to.

So good against Wolf, along with her sideb wavebounce.

Other than that, the momentum cancel is awesome.