Hunt Down or Wait and Punish?

[Godzillionaire]

Hey I was wondering what's the best option when dealing with opponents who space themselves from me? I almost always chase after them which usually works since Bowser is faster this time around and his range is big enough to chase them down, but would waiting for them to come to me and punish them work better in the long run? Thanks in advance

 

[Conn1496]

You wanna be closing the distance, almost every time. You don't have a real projectile as Bowser, so you can't afford to keep that distance. Plus, Bowser can keep some decent pressure on the opponent, and his approaches are pretty good, too. In the case of a non-projectile user though, feel free to bait them to coming to you, but always be aware that they'll have a bit of an advantage since they're the ones closing and controlling the distance.

To be honest, the way I play Bowser is to close in on them defensively, and pressure them to make the first move on your approach. If they lock down into their shield and panic, that's when you wanna grab them, or go for a Bowser Bomb. If they roll, then you can get off an easy roll punish with Whirling Fortress. -and them jumping over you will probably result in a U-tilt or an air attack catching them.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[Big-Cat]

If they're spacing you out, just patiently go in. Patience is super important with Bowser.

 

[Volimutt]

I rush in but not without some sort of plan as to what I wanna do. I'm always ready to power shield just about anything so I can punish any options properly. But you don't wanna let yourself get grabbed either so keep a close eye on your opponent's actions They go for a grab you Up-B out of shield. Their grab is a tether? Spot dodge and let them have it. Other options are SHAC F-air and simply jabbing. Hell enough for a little surprise you can Down-B when they least expect it.

 

[Zigsta]

Depends on your opponent. Generally you want to rush them down ASAP, but if you're playing someone who's either used to you running up and shielding or is grab-happy, then you'll want to try an aerial approach or bait a whiffed grab. But yes, you typically want to get in the opponent's face.

 

[33percentgod]

I usually get right in. Keeping distance just allows people to spam camp you. And it's for Glory, where D-bags will win at ANY price, so expect them to do it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Bowser's good shield grab and OoS Fortress makes waiting on their approach pretty enticing. Jab 1 at the right moment can catch many runners for an excellent followup into dash grab or D tilt. I encourage this move for grab happy opponents. Occasional fire breath can also help keep them out if their speed proves overwhelming. I do that a lot for Pikachu and Fox.

Don't underestimate slower opponents as they approach. For example, Ganondorf may be the absolute slowest character, but he's got a mean side B command grab that's difficult, if not impossible to beat with our poking jab. Being defensive involves knowing precisely what options your opponent can employ, and acting/reacting accordingly.

Some matchups don't give you the luxury of standby. If they have a projectile that reaches farther than your fire breath like Greninja's shuriken or Samus' missiles, they'll be more than happy to keep using them. And if they have one of those projectiles that's also transcendent at the same time, like Shiek's needles or Fox's lasers, then they have absolutely no reason to come after Bowser since fire breath won't stop them at all. They can force you to come to them, and that's where we struggle.

 

[Godzillionaire]

Alright thanks for the tips y'all! Good to know I had the right idea

 

[Shiny_Rayquaza]

Depends on your opponent. Generally you want to rush them down ASAP, but if you're playing someone who's either used to you running up and shielding or is grab-happy, then you'll want to try an aerial approach or bait a whiffed grab. But yes, you typically want to get in the opponent's face.

This sounds right to me. Also depends on the projectile options of the opponent. I lure most characters with bad projectile options in to get them comfortable with me being reactive but then I usually mix it up with rushing in more.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bait and punish so you can hunt them down. One Bowser Bomb at a time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

What's worked for me with Bowser has been to play him like a Sumo wrestler. Play aggressively but patiently by gradually pushing your opponent towards the ledge and space your attacks carefully. Bowser's got great tools for punishing rolls and crossups, so try to safely and patiently take space away from your opponent and force them into a corner. From there maintain pressure on them, space your attacks, and look to punish any attempts to escape. Once your opponent's escape options are limited it becomes much easier to read and punish them.

 

[amorphous bob]

Okay i'm sure there's some here who've said similar that I didn't read, but I go with both, and then lean one way or completely switch depending on how they take it. If they're not trying to overwhelm you (not necessarily a bad player) I try to do the same as I would with samus: Be unpredictable, but not ecstatic (I'm looking at you falcon), and bowser can move surprisingly smooth (again, like getting to know samus well). It might not seem like doing a lot to put a lot of effort into his movement in the air, but you can stay just away from people, or bait into some sweet stuff (like down throw and jump like you're going for an f- air but get right above them and you can catch em with your down a for 18%, or meteor them if you're close enough to slant back onto the stage). Bowser's offstage power is insane too, so getting them out there is a good time to "chase" since his f-air is great to catch them and can put them too far for recovery, his neutral air can actually be used if you hit it right after just running of the stage after them, even his up-air if they try to get to you out there is nice since your up-b tapped can go pretty high/far

@ Dark Phazon his neutral air can be good for catching them ( meaning jump while running and use it so you end up moving forward at the same time so you cover a lot of space (kind of like mewtwo's neutral air)) It's also nice to just shorthop into to catch people off guard when Fair isn't really an option. I'm not a big fan of it either, I REALLY prefer his Bair and Fair (back because it's so strong all around and front because of it's speed/priority over other moves.)

Jumping while running forward and immediately breating fire is also a really nice thing. Even those really good players who slay me get caught by that, which to me means, get good with using it effectively but it can't be used as a gimmick unless it's already something below your skill level (in which case youd win anyway) but it's really good for racking up damage when you have trouble doing other things. Its also good for jumpers/rollers

 

[Dark Phazon]

When is the best time to use neutral air...its a move i can never seem to find a use for...its to me like Ganons down smash...
Just why?
I preferred bowsers original neutral air tbh
The one he had in melee and brawl.
A few things actually i miss from old bowser...his UpAir too

 

[Godzillionaire]

A few things actually i miss from old bowser...his UpAir too

Bro I miss bowser's tackle and his headbutt forward smash. Don't get me wrong I love dropkicks but it felt more powerful to ram your entire head into the enemy and watch them go flying. And his nair is actually useful if you can get up close to enemies in the air or punish an airdodge, not to mention the crazy range it's got.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Bro I miss bowser's tackle and his headbutt forward smash. Don't get me wrong I love dropkicks but it felt more powerful to ram your entire head into the enemy and watch them go flying. And his nair is actually useful if you can get up close to enemies in the air or punish an airdodge, not to mention the crazy range it's got.

I agree i miss his forward smash too not so much his dash attack though.

 

[Godzillionaire]

Jumping while running forward and immediately breating fire is also a really nice thing. Even those really good players who slay me get caught by that, which to me means, get good with using it effectively but it can't be used as a gimmick unless it's already something below your skill level (in which case youd win anyway) but it's really good for racking up damage when you have trouble doing other things. Its also good for jumpers/rollers

The only problem with that is that smaller characters have a very easy time dodging that. If anything fire breath is mostly for large and slow characters since it's easier to hit them up close to cause some flinching and possibly some follow ups from what I've experienced.

 

[amorphous bob]

The only problem with that is that smaller characters have a very easy time dodging that. If anything fire breath is mostly for large and slow characters since it's easier to hit them up close to cause some flinching and possibly some follow ups from what I've experienced.

That's where spacing comes in! Don't go at it with a set plan. Let it depend on the matchup, because it could be just for some spacing, but I definitely see your point. It's like edge guarding with fire: It's not really gonna be a great option against good players, but if you can set yourself up right (spaced so if they shield-recover they'll roll into your fire, or if they just stand/attack -> same deal, but you can read for some jumps so catch them, maybe even force them offstage)

 

[Godzillionaire]

Don't go at it with a set plan.

Hmmm considering how Bowser's playstyle is that actually makes perfect sense. I mean sure it's important to know a few basic follow ups but overall Bowser is more of a character that just goes with the flow and adapts to overpower the opponent. And sort of off topic, but is fire breath Bowser's best edge guarding option to safely execute? Or would fair be better?

 

[amorphous bob]

Hmmm considering how Bowser's playstyle is that actually makes perfect sense. I mean sure it's important to know a few basic follow ups but overall Bowser is more of a character that just goes with the flow and adapts to overpower the opponent. And sort of off topic, but is fire breath Bowser's best edge guarding option to safely execute? Or would fair be better?

Honestly I've got a few different edge strategies with bowser. Fire breath is good when you can somewhat guess what the players gonna do, you're not feeling ballzy, and you can space yourself nicely (also against characters you can hit while they're on the edge, like Charizard). and the other side to that is using it off the edge to mess up their recovery (like stopping falcon's up-b recovery repeatedly. I really don't like fire breath over the edge, just because it's annoying, and I dislike playing douchey). My other options include his Dair, because you can get some pretty sick reads timing it right when they recover and sometimes get a meteor while still recovering for yourself, and if not you're still doing a good amount of damage. The other is Fair, this is nice for getting a read on jump recoveries, especially since those are so easy to see coming and the Fair is so fast/strong. By far my favorite finisher (my go to for dealing with little macs, since it can kill at any percent you start it at, even 0% because of his recovery) is doing a back throw from the edge (throwing them offstage) and catching them right during their recovery with a Bair, but make sure to keep your motives a bit secret, don't move too deliberately. keep it unpredictable. and if you're sure they'll be ready for your other dealios, you can run offstage and Fair (which is nice since you can just tap a after running offstage while holding forward still) and if you have a stock to spare and they have one left you can always go for a hilarious down air kamikaze. Another cool thing is forward b in the air. It's slow, not an attack, and not a common one, so it's not easily avoided when people are prepared for something else, and it's also just HILARIOUS to do an AIR BOWSERCIDE. you can shorthop into a neutral air to punish air dodging when they're recovering if they're not going for the ledge. My conclusion is, fire breath is a nice one, really it is, but I wouldn't use it against someone of your skill level or higher or just in that range until you feel like you've got a handle on using it safely. Practice making sure you don't put yourself into a punishable position. I would liken it to DK's ground pound. It IS a really good move, but only if you can use it well and remember not to mash at the right times. If you ever want to see any of this stuff in action or test out etc etc or just train bowsers, send me your friendcode and we'll homie it up. Charging your Dsmash is also very good for edge hangers, because unlike whirling fortress they might try to wait a second and then punish you, but with this they'll be lured into from the charge. it can also hit a lot of people hanging from the ledge (whirl fortress probably does too) and can KO them like that at higher percentages. whirling fortress works as a nice ledge guard like that too, catch them as they climb up. You don't necessarily want to do it at the very edge either, keep a bit of space. Like fire breath they may roll past you and by spacing properly you can make sure their only way out would be letting go of the ledge or jumping, which can both be acted on after completing whatever you were trying before.

(the quotes keep being funny. Did it for your last post too. whateva, hopefully you can see where my response starts. sorry for being so lengthy! I know i'm missing points i have during matches that i just havent articulated yet)

Bro I miss bowser's tackle and his headbutt forward smash. Don't get me wrong I love dropkicks but it felt more powerful to ram your entire head into the enemy and watch them go flying. And his nair is actually useful if you can get up close to enemies in the air or punish an airdodge, not to mention the crazy range it's got.

DUDE that's why they gave it to giga bowser (the Fsmash headbutt). Super satisfaction!!!!!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

And sort of off topic, but is fire breath Bowser's best edge guarding option to safely execute? Or would fair be better?

There's only one matchup where Fire breath is your absolute best edgeguarding move. And that's Bowser Jr.. Breath his side B to make him flinch, then keep the stream going for his UpB. Any move that makes him flinch after he ejects will send him sailing to his doom. It's absurd how easily you can abuse his recovery as Bowser of all characters. Just keep in mind that when you're spewing flames over the edge, quite a bit of the range is actually damaging windboxes. And for this scenario, you want the frames to make the opponent flinch. Here, I drew a picture to help demonstrate, there we are. We've theorycrafted on how we could use the windboxes to edgeguard in the past, but they don't seem to be game breaking.

Diddy is another MU that you want to breath. Any move that makes him flinch during the flight or charging up of his upB will result in him falling a lot of distance. And Diddy needs a ton of height in order to get a full charge out of the rocket barrels. The only problem with Diddy is that they'll always recover with Side B instead. If you can breath that first and his double jump, then he's in trouble. You also want to breath Little Mac. Because his recovery is so garbage that he can't continually recover into the flames to reach the ledge. I also personally enjoy breath on Ness. It won't stop him, but it forces him to try again with Up B. And honestly, that's not a very precise recovery move. And if he foolishly uses upB anywhere within your fire breath's wind range, the flinch range will eat his pk thunder projectile, gimping him entirely.

 

[amorphous bob]

There's only one matchup where Fire breath is your absolute best edgeguarding move. And that's Bowser Jr.. Breath his side B to make him flinch, then keep the stream going for his UpB. Any move that makes him flinch after he ejects will send him sailing to his doom. It's absurd how easily you can abuse his recovery as Bowser of all characters. Just keep in mind that when you're spewing flames over the edge, quite a bit of the range is actually damaging windboxes. And for this scenario, you want the frames to make the opponent flinch. Here, I drew a picture to help demonstrate, there we are. We've theorycrafted on how we could use the windboxes to edgeguard in the past, but they don't seem to be game breaking.

Diddy is another MU that you want to breath. Any move that makes him flinch during the flight or charging up of his upB will result in him falling a lot of distance. And Diddy needs a ton of height in order to get a full charge out of the rocket barrels. The only problem with Diddy is that they'll always recover with Side B instead. If you can breath that first and his double jump, then he's in trouble. You also want to breath Little Mac. Because his recovery is so garbage that he can't continually recover into the flames to reach the ledge. I also personally enjoy breath on Ness. It won't stop him, but it forces him to try again with Up B. And honestly, that's not a very precise recovery move. And if he foolishly uses upB anywhere within your fire breath's wind range, the flinch range will eat his pk thunder projectile, gimping him entirely.

oh my I love messing up recoveries with fire breath. you can force ike to suicide too!

 

[Jerodak]

The only problem with Diddy is that they'll always recover with Side B instead.

If Diddy is getting too comfortable with side-B recovery, it's time to look for the dunk.