How to Punish Whiffs in Midrange?

[KenMeister]

Example of this is if I notice that if someone like Mario and Link whiff a dsmash not far off from me, but when I run for the grab to avoid neutral reset, I get hit by another because of their silly end lag. Is there a way to properly punish this on reaction, or did they seriously just earn a free neutral reset? I know Kirby is slow, but c'mon.

 

[Asdioh]

Well, it depends. That's where the "bait" in "bait and punish" comes from. They made you think they whiffed a laggy attack and you had time to punish, but really the move wasn't as laggy as you thought. This is probably just a matchup knowledge thing, if you don't know the relative frame data for all of their attacks, don't run in and try to punish. This is a big killer in unfamiliar matchups: you're playing against a character you never normally play against, they miss a smash attack or something, and then you think "this is my chance" and run in and get hit. There are a lot of deceptive moves like that, Ganondorf's Upsmash, for example. It has average/slowish startup, but it ends very shortly after the hitbox comes out, and it's almost impossible to punish. Most moves are balanced by either having fast startup, slow endlag (like Kirby's smashes) or slow startup, fast endlag (like MK's Fsmash, Ganondorf's Upsmash). Then there are moves that are just stupidly fast all around, like Mario's Upsmash and maybe Dsmash. Your best bet is to just be patient if you're not sure.

Otherwise, punish with what you know you can hit in time. Shorthop Bair if they're behind you and really close, dashgrab or dash attack if they're medium distance, smashes are possible depending on the distance, etc.

Let's look at your example, of Mario and Link's Dsmashes!
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Mario
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

Mario's front part of Dsmash hits on frame 5 and 6, and the back part hits on frame 14. The move ends on frame 44, if I"m reading this correct. That gives you 30 frames to punish it, which is exactly half a second. Actually it's even more than that, if Mario's facing you, since his front hitbox ends on frame 6, so 44-6=38 frames. Which is plenty of time if you're right next to him and powershielded the front hit, but if you're a little bit away, it can be harder. Or if you shielded it, but didn't powershield, you'll get pushed away a little, as well as a little bit of shieldstun (I don't know the exact numbers) but then dropping your shield I believe takes 7 frames. And then running over there takes X amount of frames, and then Dashgrab is frame 8, Dash Attack is frame 12, Upsmash is frame 14. So you have roughly 30 frames or less to punish (don't forget human reaction time!) dropping your shield took 7 frames at least, running over to him took at least a few frames, and dashgrab takes another 8 before it connects. So yeah, you have to have good timing, or else he can just spotdodge or whatever defensive option, and punish.

As for Link, his Dsmash hitboxes are frames 9-10 (front) and 21-22 (back). He can act on frame 50, so even though his smash comes out a little slower than Mario's, he can act out of it quicker (only 28 frames after the back hit). Also, his reach might be longer because of the sword, but more importantly, the move itself does more damage, which means more shield knockback/shieldstun. I think.

tl;dr some moves are hard to punish, don't get baited if you can help it
Kirby's best moves for baiting? Um... as far as smashes go, none of them really. I think Upsmash is his hardest smash to punish on shield, it has decent knockback and endlag, and doesn't push him INTO his opponent, like Fsmash does... but it's still punishable. Kirby's Ftilt is pretty hard to punish, I believe. Otherwise, his moves don't really have crazy shield safety, they're mostly just fairly fast, and if well-spaced, can be hard to punish, unless perfect shielded.

 

[kirbyfan66]

If you Pivot/U-Turn some of Kirby's tilts they become better as far as baiting goes, namely since you can put yourself in a better position to do these things. Special mention to the Down Tilt (Forward Tilt is probably safer, though), since if it wins up shield poking, you could trip! Sadly his Smashes don't work for baiting, as Asdioh said.

Wouldn't Inhale work well to punish baits, though? It's Frame 14, and depending on the matchup, we can possibly get a good ability. We get some damage in regardless. Grab would be the best option, but iirc Kirby's dash grab isn't fast enough to punish some of the sillier things like Luigi's Up Smash.

EDIT: JEEZ I TYPO'D FRAME 4
SORRY 'BOUT THAT

Fixed...

 

[Asdioh]

frame 14, not 4

 

[Phan7om]

Frame 4 Inhale? Kreygasm

But anyway to add onto what Asdioh said, you can play the player while playing the character. Both are considered reads, but im mainly talking about outplaying the player in general not outplaying the character. Some players either dont know this/dont want to try it, or they do it at a very average level. You have to know around how skilled your opponent is in order to make the correct reads. If you do not think you can get the punish DO NOT try to punish the same way you would if you could punish. When you first play them, take a look at what they're doing.

If the first time Link does a Dsmash, run up to him but stay out of his range. Lets say afterwards he rolls away from you. Next time that Link wants to Dsmash its very possible that he might roll back again, so you could just keep running and punish his roll back attempt. Sounds simple, too simple if you ask me... but heres why assessing how skilled your opponent is is essential. Random For Glory Link will roll back 99% of the time, regardless how many times you punish. KirinBlaze/Scizor/Izaw or whoever is much better than that, so taking that into consideration it could have been a bait. You would run pass them and they would punish YOU for trying to punish them. It becomes a major Rock Paper Scissors match. Basically, against a high level player you cant always assume they will do the same thing in such a simple situation as Dsmash in neutral (most likely that situation wouldnt happen anyway).

Knowing the matchup and outplaying the character. Against Link, its safe to run up and shield because unless that Link player is a daredevil or has no idea what hes doing he will not grab UNLESS you have a habit of running up and shielding all of the time. So say they do whiff a Dsmash in neutral, you could run up and shield which will protect you from any attack they do, you could react to the spotdodge and punish, if they roll you can easily position yourself to stay safe and apply pressure. Against like Luigi, you probably dont want to run up and shield that often since it is way safer and could lead to a lot of damage.

TL:DR ~ Play the player and the character. If you are getting hit by another Dsmash after the whiff assume they will do it again because it worked on you before. Next time you go into a match, observe. The way they start a match is likely the same way they will do it next time unless they really know what they are doing (which you should be able to observe). Develop counterplay to common situations (comes with experience). Mix it up so you dont fall into these same patterns.

 

[KenMeister]

Frame 4 Inhale? Kreygasm

But anyway to add onto what Asdioh said, you can play the player while playing the character. Both are considered reads, but im mainly talking about outplaying the player in general not outplaying the character. Some players either dont know this/dont want to try it, or they do it at a very average level. You have to know around how skilled your opponent is in order to make the correct reads. If you do not think you can get the punish DO NOT try to punish the same way you would if you could punish. When you first play them, take a look at what they're doing.

If the first time Link does a Dsmash, run up to him but stay out of his range. Lets say afterwards he rolls away from you. Next time that Link wants to Dsmash its very possible that he might roll back again, so you could just keep running and punish his roll back attempt. Sounds simple, too simple if you ask me... but heres why assessing how skilled your opponent is is essential. Random For Glory Link will roll back 99% of the time, regardless how many times you punish. KirinBlaze/Scizor/Izaw or whoever is much better than that, so taking that into consideration it could have been a bait. You would run pass them and they would punish YOU for trying to punish them. It becomes a major Rock Paper Scissors match. Basically, against a high level player you cant always assume they will do the same thing in such a simple situation as Dsmash in neutral (most likely that situation wouldnt happen anyway).

Knowing the matchup and outplaying the character. Against Link, its safe to run up and shield because unless that Link player is a daredevil or has no idea what hes doing he will not grab UNLESS you have a habit of running up and shielding all of the time. So say they do whiff a Dsmash in neutral, you could run up and shield which will protect you from any attack they do, you could react to the spotdodge and punish, if they roll you can easily position yourself to stay safe and apply pressure. Against like Luigi, you probably dont want to run up and shield that often since it is way safer and could lead to a lot of damage.

TL:DR ~ Play the player and the character. If you are getting hit by another Dsmash after the whiff assume they will do it again because it worked on you before. Next time you go into a match, observe. The way they start a match is likely the same way they will do it next time unless they really know what they are doing (which you should be able to observe). Develop counterplay to common situations (comes with experience). Mix it up so you dont fall into these same patterns.

I'm generally pretty good at adapting to something that I feel someone is doing based on the situations they pull the option off in, the real issue is trying to figure out a good punish to counter it so they don't do it again.

 

[Quarium]

I am an extremely safe player so I usually go for mid range f-tilt or Pivot turn to whatever tilt as well, running shield can do wonders if they aren't picking up and grabbing ya or even a dash to sh inhale (depending on what character you are playing and what are the fastest hitboxes they can throw out after a whiff).

At the end it depends a lot on knowing the character but also examining your opponents behaviour, everyone has tendencies and good players are only better at trying to hide them, not completely get rid of them.

 

[KenMeister]

Thanks guys, I've sort of adopted a more patient playstyle where I sort of either wait until my opponents come to me or if I can read the opening, I've become alot less succeptible to this sort of thing. Thanks!