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How to punish/beat fox

Samlage

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
53
Location
Europe
Now here's the thing.. Me and my friends are entering a local tourney in 2 weeks and started practicing tonight. I had all the flow in the world and won every game the first 3 hours against everyone i played.

My friend, who btw is a very gifted gamer (you know the type, the one who can pick up any game, play it very little and in short notice beat veterans in them) struggled against against my bowser and rob. The rest of us jokingly said " why dont you try fox?". After that all hell broke loose.

The guy was juggling us and 2 stocking us every other game after that.

It feels like fox has zero endlag on his aerials and regular attacks, imediately being able to correct any mistakes he might commit. hit on shield? wanna punish with a forward tilt? NOPE instant jab combo right in the face!! ( or just about anything fox feels like doing)

When is the time to punish and when is fox the most vulnerable? Because he has flaws, only i cant see them, other than him having short range on his attacks, being lightweight and having fast falling speed. And i have trouble taking advantage of those flaws. Some pointers would be greatly appreciated. :awesome:

I play ganondorf, bowser, rob and ike mostly. I also picked up cpt falcon this night, but that guy feels like trying to tame a wild stallion.
 

Logo12

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,377
Location
Somewhere without a Smash community. Send hlep
It's recommended you use a faster character against Fox.

While you may not be able to see, there are TONS of flaws Fox has. Being extremely easy to combo, easily predictable recovery, and being extremely early to kill especially when you use Hard hitters.

Try reading Fox's inputs (Shield Dash Attacks, Up Smash, these has long lag), or just switch to characters Fox cannot combo with like Kirby.
 

DavemanCozy

Smash Photographer
Joined
May 16, 2013
Messages
1,716
Location
London, ON
NNID
CavemanCossy
3DS FC
0216-1810-7681
Ganon, Bowser, and Ike are all scary for Fox to play against. Although Fox theoretically wins the mu, 5 good hits on him also breaks Fox because he's very light and fragile.

With Bowser, you can use jab -> jab to keep Fox away from getting in through a ground approach. Up-B is one of Bowser's moves that can get him out of pressure, but it is punishable if you miss it. Short hop F-air has good range and is fast, though you should practice it doing it first because auto-cancel window is small.

Ganon vs Fox - I'll just share one of the most famous matches in Canadian Smash4 so far:
Note the way Ray_Kalm uses reverse U-airs and how he covers his landings.

ROB is actually really good at keeping Fox out with Gyros and Laser, and that should be your main plan of attack going into the MU. You have D-smash to get out of pressure and you also have neutral air to cover yourself around you.

This is all very general information: you should try focusing on one character to learn the mu with (imo, ROB has the best chance) and then move on to learning it with the others.
 

Foster J.

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
543
Location
Denmark, Jylland
Man seeing Space Dong getting trashed I can't help but feel Ganon is a better Ike in the sense 1 read kills you. And since Ganon deals TONS of damage the tilts will kill you fast too.

But just like with Shofu vs. Vex Krasani, Ganon just needs 1 read and it's a dead spacie. Flamechoke is an amazing techchase for Ganon
 

Samlage

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
53
Location
Europe
Feels like too much hit or miss frankly. Reading online and with experience, i have come to the conclusion that relying on " that one read" every game isnt realistic =/ Every falcon can land a game winning falcon punch one game every now and then. But playing a character where it feels like very move i do is a falcon punch compared to the likes of fox and yoshi is tiresome and frustrating. It makes the crowd go wild because its against the odds every time, but most of the time im just boiling inside because you have to be on a completely other level than the guy you play against.
 

DavemanCozy

Smash Photographer
Joined
May 16, 2013
Messages
1,716
Location
London, ON
NNID
CavemanCossy
3DS FC
0216-1810-7681
Feels like too much hit or miss frankly. Reading online and with experience, i have come to the conclusion that relying on " that one read" every game isnt realistic =/ Every falcon can land a game winning falcon punch one game every now and then. But playing a character where it feels like very move i do is a falcon punch compared to the likes of fox and yoshi is tiresome and frustrating. It makes the crowd go wild because its against the odds every time, but most of the time im just boiling inside because you have to be on a completely other level than the guy you play against.
You're not relying on one read. Reads are made by noticing patterns on your opponent and reacting accordingly. It's a mix of prediction and reaction, not just hoping that your opponent walks into what you're doing. This is a core fundamental of the neutral game, and it applies to every single fighting game. Forget about the Ganon-cide at the end, and read my comment again: Look cosely at how Ray_Kalm uses reverse Up-tilts to approach and how he covers his landings. In more general and broader terms, look closely at how he's managing space and properly positioning himself in comparison to Space Dong's Fox.

Ray_Kalm has been playing Ganondorf since Brawl and he is mad experienced and talented. He got 4th place at EXP 2015 (to give you an idea, Mew2king got 5th in that tournament). Space Dong is a lot better now too and he understands this. The kid is only in high school and he got 5th place at Summit just this past weekend, where he defeated Blacktwins and Yoh [Ray_Kalm's brother] and lost to the Montreal Brothers, Ally and Holly.

This is what many new players fail to understand and usually neglect, the neutral game is not just about playing your character and flashing tricks, it's about playing against an opponent and looking closely at what they're doing. You don't need to be an experienced veteran to understand this either. You just have to be playing THE game instead of your game only.
 
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