How to play against people who shield, wavedash, and dash dance a lot?

[L33thal]

I just went to a tourney in SoCal yesterday and I was doing alright against people who approached me and attacked a lot. But I got absolutely destroyed and embarrassed by people who played good defense. I noticed that most people who would do really well against me did things like:

(1) camp shield and wait for/bait me to attack
(2) wavedashed back any time I was close enough to approach
(3) dash danced a lot and waited for me to attack first so they can punish me
(4) wavelanded onto the top platform to get out of my range and come down to hit me

How do you play against these styles?

 

[magister54]

First of all, most strong competitive players are going to have mind games and be capable of wavedashing, dash dancing, etc. so you shouldn't be so surprised and caught off guard.

I would say that there are two things you could do. The first would be to improve your aggressive play style to the point that they cannot successfully overpower you with their defensive play. That would mean stepping up your shield pressuring, reacting better to things on the fly, reading your opponent (like knowing when they are trying to bait you), etc.

The second option would be to adapt a defensive play style similar to theirs. It is important to be patient and wait for the correct opening to attack if you choose this style. You can't get bored of waiting for an attack from your opponent. Whoever is more patient will usually win because they can take advantage of an overly eager attacker.

With this said, you can of course have a combination of the two styles and be able to, in the same match, switch between the two.

If you aren't willing to change your style then some simple tips to fighting a defensive opponent would be to fake an attack. If a Falco is attacking with SHL and the opponent is power shielding, the SHL can be canceled by FFing early and then you can advance while they are attempting to power shield. A retreating nair or bair can also be efficient to avoid being baited by an opponent.

You're going to just have to deal with opponents wavedashing and dash dancing. Perhaps take advantage of a mistake made (ie. an airdodge insteak of a wavedash). Use projectiles to force them to move in towards you and counter their DD with your own. Overall, just keep playing with people who are better than you and eventually you will be less flustered by those mind games and movement techniques.

 

[xman]

I just went to a tourney in SoCal yesterday and I was doing alright against people who approached me and attacked a lot. But I got absolutely destroyed and embarrassed by people who played good defense. I noticed that most people who would do really well against me did things like:

(1) camp shield and wait for/bait me to attack
(2) wavedashed back any time I was close enough to approach
(3) dash danced a lot and waited for me to attack first so they can punish me
(4) wavelanded onto the top platform to get out of my range and come down to hit me

How do you play against these styles?

Just like magister54 said you have to change your play style you can't just keep attacking. There are certain approaches that work for each situation. SHL trumps DD. If they're shield camping you can space a SHL so you land in front of them and grab or aerial to shine to Double shine for shield pressure. If they wavedash backwards when you approach (with an aerial optimally) while L canceling just hold L and stay in your shield and bait thier attacks with a shield grab or an OoS option same thing if they're platform camping if and they like approaching quickly you can try to bait them to your shield and try shining out of it if they like to wait a little and you have time to approach you can try to upair under him or shine under him and waveland on top of the platform and try to pressure him as soon as you land. these are just some of the things you can do

 

[MALVM MALVM]

The problem with switching to playing defensively is that they're probably better at defensive/counter play than you are because that's their dominant playstyle. I've also had a lot of trouble with more defensive players, but I've had some success with waiting out an opening (like xman said, missed tech skill, poorly spaced bait, if you successfully bait a defensive move, etc.) and then going in and staying in. If your mobility's good enough, you can stay so close to them that they can't run away. Don't constantly try to hit them, just make it so that they can't safely run away to reset the situation; they have to go for a reversal if they want you to back off. Now it's your game. In this close-in game, Falco's shine is super strong and his slow dash is less relevant because his WD is good enough to keep you mobile.
It's kinda what magister54 was getting at with switching between modes of play. You play defensively and safe until they do something that makes it so you can get in close to them, but then switch to your normal super aggro style.
I know it sounds like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGlQ7_OVIiI but you don't have to hit them, you just have to get close to them. Therefore, the definition of an opportunity is hugely expanded.
Crossups are really important for this style, as well as turnaround SHL. They both keep you close and keep the pressure on while still changing spacing drastically. It's dangerous because you're always in range to get hit or grabbed, so sometimes you have to back out in order to not get killed. This usually happens when you both recover from movelag at about he same time and they're outside shine range. I like to dash back turnaround SHL at this point or just wd back and reset. It sucks but it's better than losing a stock or getting chunked.
Also, this is really, really hard against Fox because he's faster than you. Now you have to use your longer legs to your advantage. It's doable but really hard and really dangerous.
If they're good at perfect shielding, SHL won't do much good against a DD. I guess you could shoot a laser low and then sh over the low laser after they reflect it, but that's hard and if they're DDing and they power shield, the laser will come at you at different times depending on when in their DD they reflected the laser. I know a lot of Marths and Shieks will only try to powershield during their dashdances because their wd, dd, and crouches are so low that a low of lasers will go over their head if they miss the powershield.
Falco's full jump gets you to the top platform probably faster than they can, so you can cut them off from the top platform by getting there first. Maybe hold shield facing away from them so you can shield drop bair if they try to hit you with something. Also, Falco's grab range kinda sucks, so you can't count on shield grabbing to get out of shield pressure.
vs shield, shinegrab op. vs swatting you away, I agree with magister54; sh forward waveland back is super strong. vs dd, never get into a rhythm because that makes it easier to powershield. If melee's a song, think of it like synchopation or jazz; you keep the song moving fast, but offbeats are emphasized to shake up what's expected. In other words, DD and laser at the same time.
I'll record what I mean and post it here if there's interest.

 

[magister54]

If it is an issue that they are better than you at a defensive play style then you should either make defensive your dominant play style or be able to outplay them with a stronger aggressive play style (and it sounds like L33thal doesn't have a dominant play style yet). So I think that you should figure out what kind of player you are before doing anything else. You can either go head to head and see who is better defensively, directly oppose that style by being aggressive, or attempt to be efficient in swapping between both styles.

What MALVM is saying about getting close to them is very on point, as this is the most important factor of both aggressive and defensive play styles. Once you are close you can choose whether you want to do something defensive like a retreating nair or something aggressive like multi-shining into a nair and utilt combo or whatever.

Discussing the use of Falco's SHL, it does depend on who you are fighting. Again, MALVM offers some good advice here for some of those different MU situations regarding SHL so I won't bother repeating this good advice.