How to improve neutral game?

[Frosty Yeti]

I was wondering how I could improve my neutral game with Ganon, especially against marth. I try to space bairs/fairs but it always seems to get beat out by marth's nair. What are some ways to boost my neutral game as Ganon?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Jumping is not a good thing in this matchup. Whoever is above the other is no longer in neutral most of the time. You must be a master of the ground game. There are several main ways for you to gain openings from the ground:

1. Shield grab

This works particularly well against nair, especially if Marth does it early. Many Marths try to cross it up. So face away and shield grab that **** when they hit your shield too high with it. The reverse grab hitbox is bigger than you think.

2. Crouch cancel setups

Crouch canceling is devastating against Marth. Dtilt puts him in the air and has a long range, but must be used when he is on the ground. Ftilt has similar capabilities with the tradeoff of not comboing as well for being a more viable move to throw out in the neutral given how you can angle it. Jab can sometimes put Marth above you, but cannot be relied upon as a setup. Crouch canel dash attack is silly, but it works against common approaches that are unsafe such as double fair. And finally, grab is the best thing you can get off a crouch cancel. It is hard to get because of the lack of Ganon's grab range and the long range nature of Ganon's aerials. But it works as well and with practice, you will recognize the scenarios you can get it. Understand that grab sets up for most likely 40+ percent and possibly death. It is the best thing you can get off in this matchup next to dair.

Next, as I mentioned previously, you cannot afford to be above Marth and he cannot afford to be above you. Be patient with your aerials and wait to throw them out until Marth is in the air for whatever reason. You need to recognize the places where Marth is the most vunerable and press your advantage as much as possible. Your conception of "the neutral" is probably not very well developed if you're mostly trying for fairs and bairs. The truth is you are not in neutral with Marth in many occasions; you are at a distinct advantage and vice versa.

Times where you have the advantage:

1. Marth is on the ledge

Marth has really ****ty ledge options and you have aerials with lots of range and shield stun that push him back whenever he tries to get back. Bait him into trying to get back in with nairs, fairs, ledge dashes or whatever and beat him back with bairs. Avoid the use of fair as the startup for that move is so large. Bair will suffice in these instances. You can also try crouch canceling and shielding him when he tries to come back on and punishing that way as well. You're going to want to mix it up.

2. Marth is above you

Uair destroys Marth when he's in the air. Did you know that if you shield a rising fair from Marth that you can uair out of shield and beat anything he does (which is most commonly another fair)? It can even hit Marth when he is on the ground because of how tall he is. Unfortunately he can dash and crouch under this, so be wary. Bair also does wonder against Marth in the air. You need to position yourself so that your bair will hit him when you are approximately next to him horizontally; he cannot be above you. Avoid fair, nair, and dair for the most part. Fair works as a punish at high percents off grabs. And nair should only be used off a low percent dair or a low-medium percent grab when you have a read Marth will DI inwards or survival DI.

3. Marth is in a corner

The two best things Marth has going for him in neutral are his insane hitboxes and his long dash dance. Take the latter away and you've crippled his options thanks to the nature of Ganon's crouch canceling (Ganon can crouch cancel to insanely high percents due to being one of the heaviest characters in the game).

Finally, I want to address a few other situations to be aware of.

When you are in a corner, you are extremely vunerable in this matchup. Therefore, knowing your ledge options extremely well is a must in this matchup. Ledgehop invincible jab is a really good option when Marth is throwing out hitboxes to swat you back to the ledge in your shield. The invincibly of the jab will protect you as you aim to hit his hitboxes with the jab. Ftilt can work too. When Marth is farther away, ledge hop dash off fast fall double jump bair can trade really well with him, or even outright beat him as it actually outranges Marth's moves. I said earlier that throwing out aerials in this matchup is often bad when Marth is grounded, but I believe that uair and bair or the only vaguely acceptable aerials when used appropriately and sparingly. That being said, ledgehop uair is great when Marth is extremely close to the ledge and not respecting you.

Getting grabbed by Marth is something you want to avoid at all costs. When Marth puts you in the air, he hurts you in a very similar way to how you hurt him: by juggling with his disjoints. And while he has to do is longer agains tyou than you do him, he has better moves to do it with. Marth can also fthrow and dthrow and punish you hard with DI mixups such as fthrow fsmash. By understanding and prioritizing what to avoid, you can, again, limit his options in neutral and win.

 

[Frosty Yeti]

Jumping is not a good thing in this matchup. Whoever is above the other is no longer in neutral most of the time. You must be a master of the ground game. There are several main ways for you to gain openings from the ground:

1. Shield grab

This works particularly well against nair, especially if Marth does it early. Many Marths try to cross it up. So face away and shield grab that **** when they hit your shield too high with it. The reverse grab hitbox is bigger than you think.

2. Crouch cancel setups

Crouch canceling is devastating against Marth. Dtilt puts him in the air and has a long range, but must be used when he is on the ground. Ftilt has similar capabilities with the tradeoff of not comboing as well for being a more viable move to throw out in the neutral given how you can angle it. Jab can sometimes put Marth above you, but cannot be relied upon as a setup. Crouch canel dash attack is silly, but it works against common approaches that are unsafe such as double fair. And finally, grab is the best thing you can get off a crouch cancel. It is hard to get because of the lack of Ganon's grab range and the long range nature of Ganon's aerials. But it works as well and with practice, you will recognize the scenarios you can get it. Understand that grab sets up for most likely 40+ percent and possibly death. It is the best thing you can get off in this matchup next to dair.

Next, as I mentioned previously, you cannot afford to be above Marth and he cannot afford to be above you. Be patient with your aerials and wait to throw them out until Marth is in the air for whatever reason. You need to recognize the places where Marth is the most vunerable and press your advantage as much as possible. Your conception of "the neutral" is probably not very well developed if you're mostly trying for fairs and bairs. The truth is you are not in neutral with Marth in many occasions; you are at a distinct advantage and vice versa.

Times where you have the advantage:

1. Marth is on the ledge

Marth has really ****ty ledge options and you have aerials with lots of range and shield stun that push him back whenever he tries to get back. Bait him into trying to get back in with nairs, fairs, ledge dashes or whatever and beat him back with bairs. Avoid the use of fair as the startup for that move is so large. Bair will suffice in these instances. You can also try crouch canceling and shielding him when he tries to come back on and punishing that way as well. You're going to want to mix it up.

2. Marth is above you

Uair destroys Marth when he's in the air. Did you know that if you shield a rising fair from Marth that you can uair out of shield and beat anything he does (which is most commonly another fair)? It can even hit Marth when he is on the ground because of how tall he is. Unfortunately he can dash and crouch under this, so be wary. Bair also does wonder against Marth in the air. You need to position yourself so that your bair will hit him when you are approximately next to him horizontally; he cannot be above you. Avoid fair, nair, and dair for the most part. Fair works as a punish at high percents off grabs. And nair should only be used off a low percent dair or a low-medium percent grab when you have a read Marth will DI inwards or survival DI.

3. Marth is in a corner

The two best things Marth has going for him in neutral are his insane hitboxes and his long dash dance. Take the latter away and you've crippled his options thanks to the nature of Ganon's crouch canceling (Ganon can crouch cancel to insanely high percents due to being one of the heaviest characters in the game).

Finally, I want to address a few other situations to be aware of.

When you are in a corner, you are extremely vunerable in this matchup. Therefore, knowing your ledge options extremely well is a must in this matchup. Ledgehop invincible jab is a really good option when Marth is throwing out hitboxes to swat you back to the ledge in your shield. The invincibly of the jab will protect you as you aim to hit his hitboxes with the jab. Ftilt can work too. When Marth is farther away, ledge hop dash off fast fall double jump bair can trade really well with him, or even outright beat him as it actually outranges Marth's moves. I said earlier that throwing out aerials in this matchup is often bad when Marth is grounded, but I believe that uair and bair or the only vaguely acceptable aerials when used appropriately and sparingly. That being said, ledgehop uair is great when Marth is extremely close to the ledge and not respecting you.

Getting grabbed by Marth is something you want to avoid at all costs. When Marth puts you in the air, he hurts you in a very similar way to how you hurt him: by juggling with his disjoints. And while he has to do is longer agains tyou than you do him, he has better moves to do it with. Marth can also fthrow and dthrow and punish you hard with DI mixups such as fthrow fsmash. By understanding and prioritizing what to avoid, you can, again, limit his options in neutral and win.

Thanks for the in-depth guidance. I now realize I am generally very impatient and come at him with unsafe aerials like a fair. I'll try to limit my air time and build up my ground game. Thanks chief