How to "fix" counters in Smash 4

[IrkenPPG]

I'm sure we can all agree the counters Re ridicously cheap, and spamable, and annoying, and frustrating, etc.
I recently thought of a way on how to fix the problem. So countering basically means you predict when your opponent attacks. I think the counter should work if you predict the exact move your opponent in going to do. It should work by using Down B, then putting in the input(s) of the your opponent will use. For example I predict my opponent will use their up smash, so I counter and then flick the C Stick upwards. It's a bit hard to explain but I think this is the best way to fix the counter issue.

 

[Mizzy Moe]

my fix is if they spam counters ill spam grabs or wait it out and smash them.

i just dont think some should last as long as they do (shulks and greninjas)

 

[MarioFireRed]

Here's my solution:

Though in all honesty you'd have to be read like an open book if you keep getting countered left and right.

 

[MOI-ARI]

I'm sure we can all agree the counters Re ridicously cheap, and spamable, and annoying, and frustrating, etc.
I recently thought of a way on how to fix the problem. So countering basically means you predict when your opponent attacks. I think the counter should work if you predict the exact move your opponent in going to do. It should work by using Down B, then putting in the input(s) of the your opponent will use. For example I predict my opponent will use their up smash, so I counter and then flick the C Stick upwards. It's a bit hard to explain but I think this is the best way to fix the counter issue.

Counter doesn't need to be more useless. You are probably being super predictable and playing the wrong players on For Glory. Lag is the only reason they are landing it im sure. That and you are missing your Z button or something along the lines.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I'm pretty sure OP's solution would make them totally worthless, rather than "fix" them lol.

 

[Xermo]

How about you stop auto-piloting and hitting the counter.

 

[Zionaze]

if you get hit by a counter its your fault :V

 

[Soup's On!]

I'm sure we can all agree the counters Re ridicously cheap, and spamable, and annoying, and frustrating, etc.

I don't think we all can agree on this, no. I mean, you ARE talking about the moves that require the other person to activate them, right? The strategy to stop them is literally to do nothing.

 

[Dokokashira]

I think the counter should work if you predict the exact move your opponent in going to do. It should work by using Down B, then putting in the input(s) of the your opponent will use. For example I predict my opponent will use their up smash, so I counter and then flick the C Stick upwards. It's a bit hard to explain but I think this is the best way to fix the counter issue.

If this ever replaced all counters, they better do, like, ten times the damage in return. Also, how would you input dash attacks?

EDIT: Yay for 50th post

 

[MOI-ARI]

If this ever replaced all counters, they better do, like, ten times the damage in return. Also, how would you input dash attacks?

EDIT: Yay for 50th post

That's immediately what I thought! That'd be rad actually.

 

[Runic_SSB]

I don't even know why counters are in the game. They're extremely abusable at lower levels and almost useless at higher levels, with no middle ground between the two. The only people who like them are people who spam them in FG and one of the biggest complaints about Smash 4 is the sheer volume of counters. The worst part is that no one asked for this. Counters were being spammed by casuals and being ignored by hardcore fans since Melee.

If I was in charge of the series, I would just throw them all out the window. Though if I had to fix them, I'd just make them throw out the move without it needing to be triggered by an enemy attack, and add super armor at the beginning. That way it'd actually be a usable move for higher level play, but casuals wouldn't be able to spam it.

 

[Ze Diglett]

How to fix counters in Smash 4: git gud
except shulk's that **** is jank

 

[Roukiske]

Grab people out of counter? Whatcha gonna do with that? Combo into a KO? You can't do that with a throw (anymore) ho ho ho ho. I charge an f-smash O_O

 

[Zionaze]

I don't even know why counters are in the game. They're extremely abusable at lower levels and almost useless at higher levels, with no middle ground between the two. The only people who like them are people who spam them in FG and one of the biggest complaints about Smash 4 is the sheer volume of counters. The worst part is that no one asked for this. Counters were being spammed by casuals and being ignored by hardcore fans since Melee.

If I was in charge of the series, I would just throw them all out the window. Though if I had to fix them, I'd just make them throw out the move without it needing to be triggered by an enemy attack, and add super armor at the beginning. That way it'd actually be a usable move for higher level play, but casuals wouldn't be able to spam it.

greninja has that custom down B where he just blows up

 

[Chiroz]

I don't even know why counters are in the game. They're extremely abusable at lower levels and almost useless at higher levels, with no middle ground between the two. The only people who like them are people who spam them in FG and one of the biggest complaints about Smash 4 is the sheer volume of counters. The worst part is that no one asked for this. Counters were being spammed by casuals and being ignored by hardcore fans since Melee.

If I was in charge of the series, I would just throw them all out the window. Though if I had to fix them, I'd just make them throw out the move without it needing to be triggered by an enemy attack, and add super armor at the beginning. That way it'd actually be a usable move for higher level play, but casuals wouldn't be able to spam it.

You mean like Lucario's custom counter or Ryu's FA? Yea, I agree that those are probably the coolest counters in the game. Greninja also has something similar in one of his customs.

 

[salaboB]

my fix is if they spam counters ill spam grabs or wait it out and smash them.

i just dont think some should last as long as they do (shulks and greninjas)

Shulks' in particular just liiiingers. It doesn't even matter that it gets shorter if he uses it a lot, it's ineffective if he spams it whether it gets shorter or not.

I agree -- the only change needed is to shorten the window a little on the longest of them.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

My solution: wait! Or grab

 

[A_Kae]

I'm sure we can all agree the counters Re ridicously cheap, and spamable, and annoying, and frustrating, etc.

Care to explain why you feel this way?

Because counters are far from 'cheap', or 'spammable'. As for 'annoying' and 'frustrating', those are just your own opinions. If you're getting hit by them, you're being far too predictable.

First, what beats counters?. Grabbing 'counters' a counter. Simply waiting until the counter window is over, and then striking, isn't a counter like grabbing is, but still deals with a counter very well.
Edit: Projectiles or long ranged disjoints can also work well against a counter, by activating and punishing the attack. Fast projectiles work best for this.

Let's look at some frame data, shall we? We'll use Marth's counter, and compare it to airdodges.

Counter starts countering on frame 6 and ends on 28. The move itself ends on frame 59. So, the countering character is vulnerable from frames 1-5, and 29-59.

Now, for the other defensive options.

Airdodge starts invincibility on frame 3 and ends on 27. The dodging character can act on frame 33. Vulnerability: frames 1-2, and 28-33.

Which of these gives better invincibility frames? Counter starts later, and the character is vulnerable for much longer. The role of counters is as a riskier dodge that hits back if you correctly predict an opponents attack. If you're getting hit by these a lot, slow down, let the opponent use their counter, and then hit them with a charged smash, or whatever other punish you choose. Alternatively, grab more, counters provide no defense against grabs. Stop mindlessly throwing out attacks, think, react, and pay attention to when your opponent likes to counter.

As for your proposed changes, that would make counters almost useless. And they're already bad enough.

TL;DR: Not cheap, not spammable. Get good.

Edit: Now with a table!
Edit 2: Added Shulk data.

Move|Startup|Invincibility|Ending
Counter (Marth)|

1-5​

|

6-28​

|

29-59​

Counter (Shulk)|

1-6​

|

7-43​

|

44-70​

Airdodge|

1-2​

|

3-18​

|

19-26​

Spotdodge|

1-2​

|

3-27​

|

28-33​

 

[Aguki90]

Use Grab. Works every time and its the safest way.

My boi Olimar is a great anti-counter. Is grab is one of the best of the best in the game.

Is pikmin he throw and stick to its opponent make them trigger counter for a good approachable grab.

Is Smash attack can be soo far away, some counters may not reach to him, after all, Every single smash attack of Olimar, are actually projectile.
So reflectors can be a little more dangerous.

Even counter can stop a projectile just by countering.
Or...

Git gud. After all, predictable counters are the worst counters, Good or Bad.

 

[Astellius]

Um, if the opponent is counter-spamming, grab them. Grab is the counter to counters. I know that spam of any type is annoying, but grabs are the best response to someone who just counter-spams.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Once again.

Smash players don't seem to understand that offense isn't always the best thing to do 100% of the time.

You're rushing at your opponent constantly.

Just stop once and a awhile and let them make the mistakes.

 

[Morbi]

The "grab" option is obviously the easiest and most effective; however, I myself have trouble dealing with Shulk's aerial counter. I am usually attempting to juggle or KO and the Shulk will constantly use the move once I approach. My problem is that I can try to bait it out by jumping once, but it lasts so long that he can fast-fall or air-dodge out of my aerial if I wait too long. My timing has to be immaculate to avoid the lingering counter but get the conversion that I desire.

I basically just do not pressure a Shulk in the air because of this option. The other counters in the game are not that viable to be honest.

 

[Solutionme]

Whoever made this thread really needs to get much better at Smash before saying that. Also no counters are not useless at high level play. Use it in between a string and you can condition your opponent not to continue it, giving you a free opportunity to hit back. Not to mention if used on the ledge and you know you're going to get attacked, it is a free gimp. It is also surprisingly not too bad of an option if you're above someone on a platform, since you can actually retaliate instead of sitting in shield. I mean there is shield dropping but that is ineffective against multi-hit moves.

So to put it bluntly. You're wrong whoever it was that made the thread. Spamming it twice in a row is actually also pretty effective sometimes, you'd be surprised how often I catch someone after conditioning them to think i use it once.

Also, if you're only pressing the a button, we need a serious talk because going against any character only pressing the a button means you probably get stopped by shields often, and counters should pretty much be treated like shields.

 

[IrkenPPG]

My problem mostly has to do with For Glory players who counter every three seconds. I think the most realistic thing to do is to nerf the knockback.

 

[SmashShadow]

While I do think counters are lazy and/or boring from a design standpoint, I don't find them bad from a gameplay one.

I just don't like is all of these characters having one:
Marth
Lucina
Roy
Ike
Greninja
Shulk
Lucario
Peach
Little Mac
Mii Fighter

and more if we count customs.

 

[Mikey Da Bawse]

I can only say that counter isn't broken and if you're baiting it out of them, then get grabs off of it and take advantage.

The only thing I honestly don't like about counter are 360 degree counters

 

[LordCQ]

If you spam counters, expect me to spam grabs. Simple enough.

 

[CrazyPerson]

I never liked counter moves...

I know there are ways around it, but I'd be all for removing them and giving some new moves to those guys.

The fact so many characters have it now makes it really annoying.

 

[cerealkiller]

The only people who like them are people who spam them in FG and one of the biggest complaints about Smash 4 is the sheer volume of counters. The worst part is that no one asked for this. Counters were being spammed by casuals and being ignored by hardcore fans since Melee.

I'll agree with the volume of counters. What makes each character fun is their own uniqueness. So many of them seems lazy.

All the rest I strongly disagree. First, Counter spammers are very easily countered. I love finding counter spammers it's so easy to bait them, the punish is very satisfying. (It's also satisfying to let them taste their own venom by actually using counter well against them)
I like counter and I don't spam it. It gives me edgeguarding options, can be used in very specific situations and it has a very interesting mind-game effects.

Online lag doesn't help either. The feeling of being countered is awful but saying that only ones spamming are the ones who like it is not accurate.

 

[veritron]

Counter spammers are a lot of fun to play against as Luigi (it's total suicide for the counter spammer.)

 

[Deleted member 269706]

If you're still whining about counters you need to get better at the game. If you notice someone throw out more than one counter in a game, you can bait the counter so easily. Just hold a charged Smash attack, wait for the counter, wait a little longer, release on cool down. Seriously, counters tend to hurt the user more than the recipient more often than not. I mean, how many pro players do you see even use their counters? Almost none because it's readable, and easy to get past. I seriously think that people who spam counter are the EASIEST spammers to beat, no questions asked. If you incorporate just a little bit of patience and observation into your play, you really shouldn't be having a hard time.

Also, your solution is already a horrible idea. How am I supposed to emulate a smash attack when I'm in the air? How am I supposed to demonstrate an aerial when I'm grounded? What if the move I'm being attacked with is unique to a character (ie: Marth's dancing blade which consists of 4 special inputs)? What if I'm countering a projectile that was fired/thrown? At the end of the day, counters are great against impatient and amateur playstyles, but they are so easy to punish and get around.

 

[Spark31]

How to beat grabs!
1.Charge smash
2.Bait counter
3.Charge longer
4.Profit.

 

[declimax]

It doesn't make sense that they would put so many counters in the game. They've got their uses in traditional fighters, specifically to beat safe jumps, but in a game with no safe jumps they just end up being useless. You'd have to be pretty bad to get hit by them enough for it to be a problem.

 

[LinkoHakurei]

Just bait the counter then punish, it works every time for counter spammers they end up never using it again for the rest of the match...