How to deal withy someone who dash attacks and rolls a lot?

[FrankDaTank]

I've been playing Melee a lot again lately in the last few months. I can usually win against people who challenge me by a decent margin.

But there's this one guy who I can usually win against, except the matches are very close. And it's mostly because I keep screwing up really badly with what he does. For example, he shields and rolls a TON. I'm talking Smash 64 Level 9 CPU stuff here.

And second, he uses Fox. But he doesn't grab or shine or even use short hop lasers, which means his Fox isn't a big deal. The problem is that he'll use a lot of dash attacks. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem since I could just shieldgrab him, but the issue is that Fox's dash attack sends him flying through my shield (Sheik in this case) and then I can't punish him properly for it. Then I'm back to square one at a disadvantage since Fox is quick enough to hit me with a smash attack from behind if I drop the shield too soon. Then I roll away and I get nothing out of it.

Third, he tends to recover high with Fox, with both Up B and Side B. Is there any effective tools Sheik has to punish him for that? Or do I just have to try and read it?

I can beat him consistently. That's not a problem. I just want to know how to deal with these issues, since they seem like such low level problems and have an easy solution I can't seem to figure out.

 

[SAUS]

I've been playing Melee a lot again lately in the last few months. I can usually win against people who challenge me by a decent margin.

But there's this one guy who I can usually win against, except the matches are very close. And it's mostly because I keep screwing up really badly with what he does. For example, he shields and rolls a TON. I'm talking Smash 64 Level 9 CPU stuff here.

And second, he uses Fox. But he doesn't grab or shine or even use short hop lasers, which means his Fox isn't a big deal. The problem is that he'll use a lot of dash attacks. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem since I could just shieldgrab him, but the issue is that Fox's dash attack sends him flying through my shield (Sheik in this case) and then I can't punish him properly for it. Then I'm back to square one at a disadvantage since Fox is quick enough to hit me with a smash attack from behind if I drop the shield too soon. Then I roll away and I get nothing out of it.

Third, he tends to recover high with Fox, with both Up B and Side B. Is there any effective tools Sheik has to punish him for that? Or do I just have to try and read it?

I can beat him consistently. That's not a problem. I just want to know how to deal with these issues, since they seem like such low level problems and have an easy solution I can't seem to figure out.

Can you wavedash? Wavedash out of shield is probably the way you are supposed to punish a dash attack like that on your shield. Other than that, you could try jumping backwards and hitting him with a fair. You could also try just crouch cancelling it. If he never grabs or does other stuff, just take the dash attack while holding down. Then punish with a down smash. This should work until you are at pretty high damage (maybe 70-ish, I don't know the exact number).

As for his recovery, do you mean he goes way above you? You should be able to hit him with a fair out of that. If your down smash can reach him at any point, it will be easier to time and will give you the same effect. If you mean he is way above the stage when he starts his up-b/side-b, then it is pretty tricky. There might be times where you can't truly cover all the options. Just go back to center stage if you don't know what to do.

Hopefully this helps you.

 

[Massive]

Against newbie Fox players Sheik can basically just spam forward-tilt and then forward-air them when they're high enough in the air for it to be easy.

Also try down-smashing on fox's recovery. If they're not sweetspotting the ledge (I'm assuming not from your description) and aren't landing too far behind you, downsmash is the death of a spacie.

 

[FrankDaTank]

Can you wavedash? Wavedash out of shield is probably the way you are supposed to punish a dash attack like that on your shield. Other than that, you could try jumping backwards and hitting him with a fair. You could also try just crouch cancelling it. If he never grabs or does other stuff, just take the dash attack while holding down. Then punish with a down smash. This should work until you are at pretty high damage (maybe 70-ish, I don't know the exact number).

As for his recovery, do you mean he goes way above you? You should be able to hit him with a fair out of that. If your down smash can reach him at any point, it will be easier to time and will give you the same effect. If you mean he is way above the stage when he starts his up-b/side-b, then it is pretty tricky. There might be times where you can't truly cover all the options. Just go back to center stage if you don't know what to do.

Hopefully this helps you.

I can wavedash, yes. I just don't tend to use it much, though I know I should.

And yes, I do mean that he goes way above me. When he's within range, I do typically hit him out of it with a down smash, but I didn't try hitting him with a F-air for fear of messing up the timing.

His dash attacks tend to mess me up because I totally screw up tech rolls when I hit the ground and he just keeps hitting me while I mistime teching, which would probably save me from getting hit by smash attacks he just throws out sometimes.

 

[FrankDaTank]

Against newbie Fox players Sheik can basically just spam forward-tilt and then forward-air them when they're high enough in the air for it to be easy.

Also try down-smashing on fox's recovery. If they're not sweetspotting the ledge (I'm assuming not from your description) and aren't landing too far behind you, downsmash is the death of a spacie.

He actually does manage to DI out of that a lot of time once he gets to around 60 percent or so. I have tried hitting him with f-airs after an f-tilt, but it only tends to work at higher percentages since Fox is a fast faller. I also can't chaingrab him with Sheik (to my knowledge). And he does sometimes sweetspot the ledge, and a lot of time I'll be waiting for him to go over my head and hit him with a down smash, but Fox's side-B will clip Sheik's head by mere pixels and I'll be sent upwards by it, which it really annoying.

I think it's just a matter of him excessively shielding and rolling and dodging which makes me miss a grab or something and then he just gets lucky with me missing a bunch of tech rolls.

I don't even think he knows how to tech roll because sometimes he'll do it and other times he won't when he hits the ground. Sometimes I think he's just mashing buttons judging from his playstyle.

 

[SAUS]

I can wavedash, yes. I just don't tend to use it much, though I know I should.

And yes, I do mean that he goes way above me. When he's within range, I do typically hit him out of it with a down smash, but I didn't try hitting him with a F-air for fear of messing up the timing.

His dash attacks tend to mess me up because I totally screw up tech rolls when I hit the ground and he just keeps hitting me while I mistime teching, which would probably save me from getting hit by smash attacks he just throws out sometimes.

May as well go for it until you nail it down and can do it consistently You can also go for a bair. I think it is a lot easier to time/aim, since the hitbox stays out and is larger. You basically jump towards the center of the stage and throw out your foot. If you get a weak hit and he DIs wrong, you can get a fair off of it sometimes, too.

I'd also recommend trying to go for that wavedash to punish his dash attack. That way, you will eventually just have it down and the punish will be automatic. He won't be able to do what he is doing and so will have to change his strategy. You'll be a stronger player for it as well.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Well you Main Marth would make short work of it, but you're angling on the Sheik match-up and in that case...

Needles interrupt everything. You can shut down those dash approaches constantly with them at pretty much no cost. As well, as SAUS says, a tasty wavedash outta shield is how to get around being unable to shieldgrab it. As for rolls, just sit back and let him go nuts rolling all over the place, because you can just stay back and wait for that dash approach. Also you can kind of tell people's rolling habits at that level if they keep doing it as their way to be evasive. After all, rolls are set distances to determined locations on the stage, so if they tend to do roll patterns like always trying to roll behind you, or they roll behind then try to change-up and roll back to fake out, you can smack that goofiness down pretty soon.

 

[Vorde]

I can wavedash, yes. I just don't tend to use it much, though I know I should.

And yes, I do mean that he goes way above me. When he's within range, I do typically hit him out of it with a down smash, but I didn't try hitting him with a F-air for fear of messing up the timing.

His dash attacks tend to mess me up because I totally screw up tech rolls when I hit the ground and he just keeps hitting me while I mistime teching, which would probably save me from getting hit by smash attacks he just throws out sometimes.

Use fair with her, it's the reason for me that I find the matchup difficult being a fox main. Her fair sends you into oblivion without any options; especially if you grab ledge

 

[Spak]

Also, if the Fox is trying to sweetspot the ledge with Up-B (which it doesn't sound like he is with his skill level, but just for future reference), D-Smash is good for edgeguarding the missed Firefoxes.

 

[Dr. Barrio]

Well first of all if someone continues to use the same tactics you should be able to adapt to that and punish him! If he continues to dash attack you should wavedash back and punish accordingly. You can also shieldgrab his dash attack or even attack out of shield. If he continues to spam rolls you want to see his habits. A big part of Smash is learning and studying your opponents habits. If you see he only rolls one direction you should expect that and punish him. If he rolls behind you, you should charge a smash attack behind you and let him roll into that (always satisfying lol). Just pick up on his habits and punish him! Keep in mind that you should also be mixing up your punishes or else he will pick up on YOUR habits. Practice mind games too, hope this helped

 

[FrankDaTank]

Well first of all if someone continues to use the same tactics you should be able to adapt to that and punish him! If he continues to dash attack you should wavedash back and punish accordingly. You can also shieldgrab his dash attack or even attack out of shield. If he continues to spam rolls you want to see his habits. A big part of Smash is learning and studying your opponents habits. If you see he only rolls one direction you should expect that and punish him. If he rolls behind you, you should charge a smash attack behind you and let him roll into that (always satisfying lol). Just pick up on his habits and punish him! Keep in mind that you should also be mixing up your punishes or else he will pick up on YOUR habits. Practice mind games too, hope this helped

Yes, I have been adapting to him lately. Edgeguarding his Fox is generally very easy. I can now beat him with Sheik rather easily. It's just a matter of punishing his excessive rolling and such. Also, I realized I could just tech chase chaingrab him with Sheik.

Or, if all else fails, I can just edge hog. Fox is terrible when he's offstage.

It just took a little while for me to pick up on his habits.

 

[Dr. Barrio]

Thats great!
Also I noticed that you main Marth and he has a chaingrab on Fox so have fun with that haha

 

[Dr. Barrio]

Yes, I have been adapting to him lately. Edgeguarding his Fox is generally very easy. I can now beat him with Sheik rather easily. It's just a matter of punishing his excessive rolling and such. Also, I realized I could just tech chase chaingrab him with Sheik.

Or, if all else fails, I can just edge hog. Fox is terrible when he's offstage.

It just took a little while for me to pick up on his habits.

Thats great! Also I noticed that you main Marth and Marth has a chaingrab on Fox so have fun with that haha

 

[FrankDaTank]

Thats great! Also I noticed that you main Marth and Marth has a chaingrab on Fox so have fun with that haha

Actually, we started playing PM again (which is what I normally play) and he didn't want me to use Marth so I just chose Roy and chaingrabbed him. It was hilarious. I love doing that with Marth or Roy to Fox or Falco

 

[Dr. Barrio]

Actually, we started playing PM again (which is what I normally play) and he didn't want me to use Marth so I just chose Roy and chaingrabbed him. It was hilarious. I love doing that with Marth or Roy to Fox or Falco

He didnt want you to use marth? LOL Roy is actually pretty good! His Down Tilt pops characters up which leads to easy follow ups!

 

[FrankDaTank]

He didnt want you to use marth? LOL Roy is actually pretty good! His Down Tilt pops characters up which leads to easy follow ups!

I know! I like him so much more in PM than Melee. I literally just started chaingrabbing today and my friends are already saying it's annoying lol. Actually, there was a match today where I chose Ike against another one of my friends who also plays Fox. At first he said "Oh, okay, Ike, a different matchup without Marth or Roy" and then I chaingrabbed his Fox with Ike. Good stuff. I'll probably stop doing it so much just so they don't get too pissed but I still think it's funny to do.