How to deal with Mega Man's Pellets/Lemons?

[Afro Smash]

The more experience I get Vs good Mega Mans the more dumbfounded I become in combating their Lemons. I know Charge Shot can beat them, but not only is it difficult to find time to charge amidst constant Lemon pressure but they're not locked in place when firing them so It's still a read on where they'll be. I also know they're somewhat vulnerable after firing 3 in a row, but they're not forced to do this and can easily mix it up.

Hopefully one of you can help ;-;

 

[DungeonMaster]

F-tilt eats lemons and hurts Megaman. F-tilt is absolutely critical. N-air and Z-air out of SHAD likewise beat out lemons (B-air can too it's just slower on startup and my be interrupted easier). Megaman's lemons go 1-2-3 *pause*. That pause is when you change the spacing and punish.
You want to get him to circa 60 damage and then you can charge your shot at least half full with whatever hit connects and it's all downhill for him. Mega is my secondary, I know all his tricks and his spacing game well. It's an extremely hard matchup for Megaman, Samus simply does way more damage and out-prioritizes the lemons with long tilts and z-air. I had some pre-patch video somewhere of me vs. a good mega, I didn't have a capture card back then, maybe I saved it... good Mega is getting more and more rare online, I promise the next one I run across I'll post it to the matchup 2.0 thread...
My suggestion is play him a bit as well to learn to recognize when he has endlag, he has tons of laggy moves and can be punished with an up-tilt on all of them.

 

[Afro Smash]

Does any hit of F Tilt beat them?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Actually post patch with the new hitboxes I don't actually know for a fact... it should though since it's 5 damage min.

 

[Afro Smash]

And any advice for when they short hop them?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

And any advice for when they short hop them?

If what DM is saying about ftilt is true, a real simple adjustment would be tonangle it acordingly. Zair would also be a no brainer and his SH would help you land it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yes you definitely can angle the f-tilt to provide some coverage but in practice I find it doesn't work so well (I still do it). The pellet can sneak in through the hitbox and hit you in the face. The standing f-tilt neutralizes the standing pellet hitbox completely (or used to! I have to check).
This is a close spacing knife fight. You want to get Mega at distance X where X = f-tilt range and he wants to keep you at Y which is just a bit beyond X. So depending on where he places his SH pellet in the 1-2-3 you have to react accordingly. It can mean angled tilt if he's close, SH AD -> nair if he's mid or SH AD cancelled into z-air if he's far and of course SH your CS if far. You have to use your hitboxes to cover yourself.
You only need to win out 1 out of 3 spacing battles to break even. Pellets deal max 3% (4% with nair) and Samus nair - ftilt are 8 or 9 damage.

 

[Hark17ball]

Perfect timing on the question Afro. I ran into a great Mega Man earlier myself and it was an intense battle. ill make sure to use this advice against the next one.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

ok figured out what DungeonMaster means. Ftilt doesn't out prioritize lemons, it collides with them and Mega Man at the same time. I'm assuming this works because it's a projectile and counts separately for priority. This works with any projectile we can collide with.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Personally I find dtilt destroys lemon spacing. Maybe not as much range as ftilt, but it comes out fast enough where you can just eat a lemon or two and hit them with dtilt. It's fast enough to come out in between lemons, you don't have to wait for the third one. And it does enough damage to where the lemons become negligable.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

You should know that the Mega Man boards once consider this to be among his worst match-ups. They've gotten more positive about many match-ups over time, as they've gotten better at making effective use of MM's tools and embraced custom moves.

I tracked down some quotes for you, so you can try to identify exactly what it is about Samus that Mega Mains struggled with, how they adapted to it, and attempt to identify some kind of advantage:

Spoiler

Samus is just the worst. One's that's defensive is very difficult, they just love to shoot out a Super Missile at the start (which our only option is jumping/crouching, as none of our projectiles have the speed/hitbox to counter, can't slide either), and just focus on charging/rolling ... as approaching with Lemons is actually risky. ... I'm definitely in the boat for this being our worst match up for now and is one for which you'll need a secondary for.

I really feel like [Samus} is just Mega Man's anathema. I'd even be willing to say it's his absolute worst matchup. You have no advantage. A smart Samus will always play complete defense, and since you didn't have the range to compete with her that way you have to approach, and that plays right into her hands. She can shoot down metal blades with ease with missiles that shoot faster. She can stay away from you all day. A smart Samus will always have a charge ready which makes harassing with lemons actually risky. Coming in from the air is risky because her anti air is very solid, she's practically built to be an edge warrior so other than gimping with leaf shield when she's off the stage she just has more options than you do there. The list goes on and on, she's just built to be the perfect answer to MM's kit imo. Other than maybe pressing an attack when she doesn't have a charge ready (which is still not easy she can still play keep away) and harassing with lemons then...

My new bane of existence: Samus. That charge shot can be used on reaction against metal blades, crash bomb, or pellets.

While I'm a bit surprised at how much advantage people are giving Megaman... I can't really disagree with it. I was giving it a 6-4 to be conservative, but I could definitely see it being worse.
...
Samus was one of the chars that I had a few issues with early on in the game, but as I go along, I keep getting better at the matchup, and I do feel it's a fairly strong advantage for us now.

Your points make a lot of sense, seeing it put that way Charge Shot does seem like the best bet vs Mega Man. Charge Shot+Mega Bombs+Relentless Missiles could be a huge pain for us in this matchup, and I know that Mega Bomb sees some use out of a few Samus players. I'm not sure what up B she could go for. The 11 frame start up of Apex Screw Attack seems like a bad choice because of lemons, even if it is a good kill move. Screw Rush is also 11 frames, but it punishes a good amount of horizontal space, though it prevents her from gimping us if we bring anything but Beat. Seems to me that Screw Rush might be her best bet in this matchup if we bring Beat and otherwise regular screw attack would be what to look out for if we have Tornado Hold or Rush.

Yup. Samus was one of my toughest matchups early on, but as I've gotten better and MM's meta has developed, I now find it much easier. Lemons are just that good.

Uair is also really solid in this MU. It's not too challenging to land a grounded uair on her given how tall she is and how much of a commitment many of her moves are.

I still think Charge Shot is the trickiest thing about this MU for us. It beats every single one of our projectiles, so it can make lemon spam much more dangerous. My friend plays a mean Samus and when he's making good reads and punishes with Charge Shot, I feel a lot less in control of the match.

Samus will never run melee charge shot. It's bad. Samus mains can correct me if I'm wrong, but normal charge shot is a must. Otherwise, there's nothing to keep Mega Man from unloading metal blades, crash bombs, or reckless pellets.

Slip bombs have a very small timer and even smaller range (you basically have to be above them and hope they run into it). Mega bombs might work for what you are talking about.

It's probably one of those cases where, assuming both players play perfectly, Mega should win since he'll give Samus a hell of a time building a charge early on (except at the word go where nothing Mega has will hit Samus before she can get at least half ready), and Samus is a relatively easy target for juggles.
She also has a slow roll that Rock is very adept at punishing, if not always hard. But if he lets up the pressure
for even a moment or slips up... there's little he can do to stop the incoming charge shot, let alone stop her from charging again unless she misses at close range.

Have to agree with these Samus players on this one. Playing from Mega Man's side well spaced Lemons arre absurdly safe and good in this matchup. They rack damage for free, destroy both kinds of missiles, stuff uncharged shots, and punish anything she can try for at that range, even Z-air if you're short hopping even periodically to stay mobile. Plus the buster sweetspot can bully Samus if you're closing in, it takes even more of the stage away from her forcing her to play from the corner. Up Air, Fair, Nair and Bair all prevent her from jumping over us to reclaim land, meaning she has to fight us head on, which requires getting past the lemons.

Even once she has a charge shot our up close game can still do well against her if we have a metal blade in hand. One grab basically nullifies anything she can do until she hits the ground again, which is easily her biggest weakness overall in Smash 4 and we prae on that well. I'd argue this one's at least 70:30 in Mega Man's favor.

Samus can combo us pretty well and rack damage up too, plus we're not even approaching safe off stage but we just dominate her so hard on stage regardless of platforms that it's an uphill battle for her.

Megaman pretty much shows everything that is wrong with Samus in this game.

75:25 in Megaman's favor. If anyone disagrees with this then you obviously haven't seen a Megaman who knows how to use pellets to invalidate -a lot- of Samus' options.

If Megaman has Samus cornered she is hard-pressed to do anything that'll get her punished. Megaman's U-tilt is the perfect punisher for rolling and can kill her at 120% without rage. Raged U-air stops Samus from landing safely and since she is a floaty character this is especially bad, and Megaman's D-air beats tether and Up-B and is a great spiking move, and pellets stop almost everything.

Charged Shot and Z-air are Samus' best friends this fight, and I find that Z-air should definitely be your go-to option for this MU because it's always ready. Samus' goal here is to combo Megaman as much as possible and then knock him away to get a charged shot ready so she can have a way to keep Megaman uncomfortable, then mindgame her way to victory.

Pellets are -that- much of a problem though.

I happened to show up because I like Megaman a lot. I think this is 60:40 Megaman. For reference Xyro thinks megaman is a hard counter to Samus.

Charge shot is main thing we have going for us. Lemons eat missiles and even super missiles, which takes away some of our spacing options while not really hurting your spacing options at all.

Like someone said earlier in this thread, you guys want to be out of ftilt range but in lemon range. Even if we get in, you have that super annoying sliding dtilt that sets up your favorite move against us. Samus is very susceptible to air shooter. She is tall (easy to hit a landing air shooter), floaty, and slow horizontally (about the same speed as megaman when we are in morph ball after dropping a bomb). Total air shooter fodder (basically the full component of megaman > samus). Plus you have usmash, which is pretty fast and puts us up, and utilt which is an out the top kill move which are relatively more effective on samus than horizontal kills.

On the plus side for Samus, you guys are fairly gimpable, and the only change up on your recovery is that you can use rush then jump rather than jump than rush. Lots of stuff works if we get you off stage. Basically everything is on the table: zair, fair, dair, stage spike bair, nair, missiles, bomb, charge shot. You guys are ok at gimping Samus with your fair and bair, but nothing really more particularly interesting than any other character.

You guys have a pretty bad dair, which is the biggest hole we can exploit. Basically, my goal against megaman is to get my CS so he can't safely stay at long range, then stay below him whenever possible (dash attack and dtilt especially), but you have so many options to get Samus above you, it's hard to actually maintain that location.

It could be that at very high level the matchup switches into megaman's favour but for mere mortals this is a terrible, awful matchup for megaman. Quite possibly the worst. I cannot recall ever losing to mega as Samus. I play a *very* mellee+charge shot focused Samus, missiles are rarity from me.

The break-even point is about 60% damage. If mega has not won the stock by about 60% damage on him pretty much any move that Samus throws out gives her 1.5 seconds which is enough to get a half-charged shot. The other problem is Samus can dish out damage in the blink of an eye with just one combo. Once the shot is loaded - nothing is safe. Jump? Charge shot timed to your landing. Ok, so up-B before landing -> she knows this, starts charging another shot immediately since your up-B sends you sky high, worse problem now. Pellets? Charge shot. Lemons? Charge shot. Blade? Charge shot. Leaf shield... lol, just no. If she's sitting at f-tilt range what do you do? You both dash and walk at the same speed, there's no mixup possible. Nothing is safe. Literally nothing. We play can and mouse for awhile but if the reads are equal you're basically dead, every trade means another charge shot and it starts to get fully charged which is downhill slope fast.

I feel extremely safe in short hop aerial pursuit against megaman, I know his hitboxes really well, and it is possible to win out with Samus in the air at a high ratio move vs. move. Z-air I feel is mixup, not focus, but Samus can literally start an air-dodge and cancel it with z-air at any point, so if she sees pellets, z-air. Megaman has huge cooldown on his ground game, the Samus up-tilt can land after his dash, a spot dodged f-smash, the d-smash, the d-tilt, the up-tilt, and Samus' up-tilt is a major combo starter, you can eat a 38% pack of damage instantly from one punish. Megaman just simply can't do that in return.
Again, for mere mortals, this is hard as hell.

Okay. A whole day without discussion.

Here are some videos to liven things up. And by liven things up, I mean... I'm sorry, Samus, and those who think this matchup is close to even. This is incredibly one-sided and Mega Man just needs to play the matchup correctly to win.

AAA demonstration
BAir vs BAir
UAir love on Battlefield
We Livin'

4 videos. I have more I wanted to upload, but it's late and I wanted to get this out. @HeroMystic and I played for maybe an hour and a half and came up with the following conclusion: Samus has no answer to pellets.

Half/full charge shot? Stuffed by pellets too at the right range. She can start to make headway if pellets get so stale that super missiles outprioritize them, but both missiles & Z-air can be traded with fsmash.

Note: Yes, this is wifi, but the connection was smooth and the principle still stands. During some of these matches, I went into auto pilot AAA utilt mode, mostly because I wasn't worried about making mistakes or really worried about taking hits in general. I miss some trading opportunities and mess up my pellet spacing at times which leads to some good Samus combo's.

I encourage both sides to analyze these videos to see if there is something that was missed. But I think they do a decent job of showing what happens in this matchup.

So the same people went from thinking the match-up was a hard counter one way, and they eventually shifted all the way to the other direction. This is a really polarizing and difficult match-up, and there's no easy answer to it for either side.

I hope this helps.

Edit: I'm going through and bolding some more critical parts of the quotes, while cutting off superfluity for your convenience.

 

[Afro Smash]

Thanks, watching the videos it seemed like D-Tilt and F-Tilt weren't beating pellets? seemed they'd clank then Mystic would get hit with the next 1/2. Spaced Pellets quite easily outrange F-Tilt too it looked like. DM's advice for SH AD cancel with Zair seems like the best/only option, and even that, say you jump oos and AD, by the time you come out of the AD or are low enough for Zair to connect the cooldown on his pellets has probably ended and youll be forced to make an unfavourable trade.

The only way I can really see us winning this MU, outside of potentially CS mind game abuse, is ledge camping majority of the game. And I also find that once I get in on Mega Man I can get a lot out of it.

Edit: Just remembered Full Charge F Smash hits beneath the stage, welp

 

[Xygonn]

Dtilt will beat pellets if it isn't stale.

 

[Afro Smash]

But if you beat one pellet, don't the others just hit you whilst you're in end lag?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

yeah CS and ledge camping seem to be the way to go. Maybe platform camping too if we get a lead?

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

But if you beat one pellet, don't the others just hit you whilst you're in end lag?

You just gotta eat some lemons. Don't fear the lemons. Embrace them.

 

[Afro Smash]

You just gotta eat some lemons. Don't fear the lemons. Embrace them.

When life gives you lemons... ask Sakurai for lemonade

 

[RoachCake]

You just gotta eat some lemons. Don't fear the lemons. Embrace them.

This might not be a bad idea actually.
I mean I just found out Luigi's fireballs are more unsafe on hit than on block. (At least that seems to be the case.)

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

This might not be a bad idea actually.
I mean I just found out Luigi's fireballs are more unsafe on hit than on block. (At least that seems to be the case.)

Think of it like Samus's jab but with more range and in bursts of 3. The lemons do less hitstun than they should.