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How to deal with Greninja?
- Thread starter megabbaut
- Start date
Mario766
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,527
- NNID
- 766
Full charged shuriken can lead into F-Air at kill percents and can lead into a grab if you shield it. I'd recommend not shielding it at all, you can punish a shuriken charge if you jump over it. His buttons have decent end lag so it's punishable and after the patch jab works on Greninja so the match-up got a bit better. I also recommend NOT recovering in a predictable manner, or you will get gimped. Eruption is a god send for edgeguarding too.
D
Deleted member 269706
Guest
You have to stay defensive against Greninja. Jump a lot, and spam nair. Keep your distance, and wait for him to come to you.
GhostUrsa
Smash Ace
If you are attacking from the air, we seem to out-range him when we approach from the sides compared to above or below. Use this to your advantage, for example saving your second jump to slide to the side of him while f-air. He has better speed with his jump, but his horizontal maneuverability is terrible compared to ours which makes spacing much easier. Watch out for Shadow Sneak at close range, as it comes out fairly fast and can set you up for a combo. Most Greninjas will avoid using it from a distance because it's easy to spot coming and a well placed Counter makes a whiff lethal, but be ready to capitalize on this if they get impatient! You'll want to stay close to make it so he doesn't have time to charge his shurikens, but not to close for him to hit you with his melee attacks (his range is terrible compared to ours). In my experience, the best thing to do is to be aggressively defensive, (yes, I know it's an oxymoron) where you are always on him but only striking from a safe distance so you're opponent gets angry/sloppy.
GhostUrsa
Smash Ace
In general, I'd agree. My comment was on his aerial mobility specifically, which is very specific in it's application compared to Ike's from what I've found. Greninja has a higher jump and faster jumping speed, but his horizontal movement in the air leaves a lot to be desired. I've found a retreating jump for Ike to actually outspace Greninja's jump, and retreating f-airs really puts the hurt on him since you'll be using both our better horizontal aerial movement and our better range. I'd never directly challenge Greninja from above or below, as he has far superior reach and maneuverability that way.
On the ground, he can out speed and flank us by a good margin. Our saving graces are that we are heavier, which means he has a harder time going for the KO, 2 of his specials have a windup that we can anticipate and that most of our moves out-reach his. That and our jab will usually beat out his speed if he goes for the grab. I've had better luck being slightly out of attack reach for him, as it prevents him from fully charging his shuriken (all his smaller charged ones allow for shield and punish at that range) and a point blank shadow sneak but allows us to capitalize on him using his dash for a grab.
I like the 'Aggressive Defense' stance in this case because we are staying out of reach not due to mobility but because of our attack reach. Like a mother with a slotted spoon, we slap him away when he tries something sneaky. We don't have to actually out-speed him, just slap him enough to make him anxious and brash.
Maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but after spending some time playing as Greninja I've noticed that I prefered to stay on the ground as him unless I knew I had a clean hit because of how limited his horizontal mobility was combined with his more limited reach.
On the ground, he can out speed and flank us by a good margin. Our saving graces are that we are heavier, which means he has a harder time going for the KO, 2 of his specials have a windup that we can anticipate and that most of our moves out-reach his. That and our jab will usually beat out his speed if he goes for the grab. I've had better luck being slightly out of attack reach for him, as it prevents him from fully charging his shuriken (all his smaller charged ones allow for shield and punish at that range) and a point blank shadow sneak but allows us to capitalize on him using his dash for a grab.
I like the 'Aggressive Defense' stance in this case because we are staying out of reach not due to mobility but because of our attack reach. Like a mother with a slotted spoon, we slap him away when he tries something sneaky. We don't have to actually out-speed him, just slap him enough to make him anxious and brash.
Maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but after spending some time playing as Greninja I've noticed that I prefered to stay on the ground as him unless I knew I had a clean hit because of how limited his horizontal mobility was combined with his more limited reach.
dahuterschuter
Smash Journeyman
Hit him with your sword.
The pig-keeper
Smash Cadet
Having played against a greninja for 1 hour, the least I can say, is that Ike's pretty weak versus Greninja in every way.. Except maybe his aerials and jab.
Given that Greninja has excellent ground and air speeds Ike can't really play his cards right, since he mainly relies on his neutrals, a bit too slow versus Greninja, and the area covered by them. And Greninja just dodges, jumps, dash grabs and eventually finds his way, playing with Ike's lags.
Moreover, Ike's recovery is destroyed by Greninja's Up-B. And I won't remind you how awfull Ike's recovery is. It doesn't take that much to be lost beyond recall after a recovery attempt, if you know what I mean..
The only pro I've found so far is that Nair and jab tend to nicely control the space, but once again, Greninja's speed will punish you if you didn't manage to hit.
I'd put Greninja in the "characters I feel bad to play against" basket, alongside Marth and Sheik since the effort you have to make to defeat them is half what they do to defeat you.
So go ahead and teach me guys, cause I'm not blaming Ike and I'm not good enough to state that Ike's bad against such or such character, but as a result I'd say that Ike's MU versus greninja would be 30:70.
Yet, let's keep fighting for our friends.
Given that Greninja has excellent ground and air speeds Ike can't really play his cards right, since he mainly relies on his neutrals, a bit too slow versus Greninja, and the area covered by them. And Greninja just dodges, jumps, dash grabs and eventually finds his way, playing with Ike's lags.
Moreover, Ike's recovery is destroyed by Greninja's Up-B. And I won't remind you how awfull Ike's recovery is. It doesn't take that much to be lost beyond recall after a recovery attempt, if you know what I mean..
The only pro I've found so far is that Nair and jab tend to nicely control the space, but once again, Greninja's speed will punish you if you didn't manage to hit.
I'd put Greninja in the "characters I feel bad to play against" basket, alongside Marth and Sheik since the effort you have to make to defeat them is half what they do to defeat you.
So go ahead and teach me guys, cause I'm not blaming Ike and I'm not good enough to state that Ike's bad against such or such character, but as a result I'd say that Ike's MU versus greninja would be 30:70.
Yet, let's keep fighting for our friends.
GhostUrsa
Smash Ace
@
The pig-keeper
To maximize your speed, you'll want to optimize some of your moves to that they either minimize your landing lag or remove it all together. FastFall your n-air, perform your f-air and b-air while rising with a short hop so that you hit the ground with an auto-cancel. These will make it so that it's harder to get in on Ike's whiffs and keep you safe.
As for in the air, Hyrdo pump is a good gimping tool against Ike but I find that good anti-spike defensive options help trump it. The optimal areas for it to work from what I've seen are no different than Ganondorf going for the spike (low recoveries but far from the stage) so going for a higher recovery or a shark recovery will work best here. (They'd have to get around Aether's strike to have a chance to prevent the snap, with only being right on the edge already or offstage giving them a proper setup when sharking. I'd recommend avoiding stages with walls under the main platform to maximize our odds.)
Mix it up, and keep him annoyed so Greninja has to stay on the offensive will go a long way towards keeping Ike in the fight.
The pig-keeper
To maximize your speed, you'll want to optimize some of your moves to that they either minimize your landing lag or remove it all together. FastFall your n-air, perform your f-air and b-air while rising with a short hop so that you hit the ground with an auto-cancel. These will make it so that it's harder to get in on Ike's whiffs and keep you safe. As for in the air, Hyrdo pump is a good gimping tool against Ike but I find that good anti-spike defensive options help trump it. The optimal areas for it to work from what I've seen are no different than Ganondorf going for the spike (low recoveries but far from the stage) so going for a higher recovery or a shark recovery will work best here. (They'd have to get around Aether's strike to have a chance to prevent the snap, with only being right on the edge already or offstage giving them a proper setup when sharking. I'd recommend avoiding stages with walls under the main platform to maximize our odds.)
Mix it up, and keep him annoyed so Greninja has to stay on the offensive will go a long way towards keeping Ike in the fight.