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How to deal with chain grabs and defensive playstyles? (PAL)

Clint Jaguar

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Feb 25, 2014
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Recently I had to deal with a player who I didn't know how to play against. He wasn't that much better than me but with every character he played he would wait for me to approach and then chain grab me to death. If I didn't approach he would wait and play the spacing game (dash dancing out of range) until I did something stupid and then chain grab me. We had a Sheik ditto on FD which almost went into timeout because we spent most of the match on opposite sides of the screen, dash dancing and throwing needles.

My question is, how do I deal with this type of player in the future and is there anything I can practice in the meantime? My current PC can't run Melee without notable slow down so please don't recommend the 20XX pack.
 

the muted smasher

Smash Journeyman
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Sep 24, 2014
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409
You don't have to deal with them if they don't have the lead and some match-ups like sheik dittos just favor defensive play.

Like most moves can be safe on shield with tight timing or spacing re look at that and cross ups are great vs the walk forward wd back non sense.

Also if they just walk back You can just walk forward and lock them in a corner
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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The back country, GA
Hold away and you'll get out of lots of these "chaingrabs". You shouldn't be getting chaingrabbed in the PAL sheik ditto.

For true cg's, it's different for every scenario but you want to mix in DI away, DI behind, and up+slightly behind and jump out (you have to know at what percentages this is possible). You could even do no DI if you know he's guessing (Ganon cg on fox at low%), whatever you think he could miss. It's important to know that DI full behind typically gives you the lowest trajectory and makes some cg's possible up to high%, but it also forces them to pivot dash jc grab, which in tournament gets flubbed often enough.

So you need to do some testing and asking questions. Escaping chaingrabs is a skill. Avoid FD and DL64.

Lastly, if you have a higher controller port is grabbed with an extra frame of stun from throws. I cg a lot as Ganon and in certain matchups I'll take the small advantage.
 

Clint Jaguar

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You shouldn't be getting chaingrabbed in the PAL sheik ditto.
Maybe I just need to work on my DI because usually what happens is, I get jabbed right out of a down throw and then re-grabbed. The player I mentioned could do this with Falcon too.
 

the muted smasher

Smash Journeyman
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Sep 24, 2014
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409
Jab grab isn't fool proof in the us version. Falcon can only chain throw some for so long and it's easier for falcon to tech chase most of the time or switch throws for an upair combo.

Straight up di/sdi
 

Stride

Smash Ace
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Feb 22, 2014
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North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
I'm the player you're talking about. Since I'll see you again on Thursday we can talk more then if you want, but for now I'll say a few things (which turned out to be far longer than I expected).

I didn't chaingrab you very much outside of the Marth-spacie matchups; chaingrabs are not possible in many matchups, and in the ones they are they often only work at narrow damage ranges or are DI-dependent. I did tech chase you a lot though, which is what I assume you meant.

When you say you were getting "jabbed right out of a down throw and then re-grabbed", you mean that you were getting jab reset after missing the tech on the throw and not right out of it; I used jab to regrab (as in jabbing you out of the air and then grabbing you after the jab before you hit the ground) very rarely if at all. You're practically always in range of a jab reset off a tech chase throw regardless of your DI (and regardless, missed tech can be covered by many other options); you have to learn the timings for teching the throws if you want to be able to get out of tech chases.

Against players who only dash-dance camp waiting for you to mess up and who never approach, you have to take control of their space (by dash-dancing closer to them, walking forwards, etc.). They want to avoid committing to anything, while waiting for you to throw out a move so they can dash back and reactively punish it. If you just move forwards into their space, then if they dash back to remain safe they have to give up stage to you. Once you demonstrate that you're able and willing to take their space instead of swinging at them and that you can keep a hold on that space, then they have to stop dash-dance camping so much since they'll just end up backing themselves into the corner (they can still dash-dance, but they can't only wait for you to approach the whole time).

There's also the concept of overshooting or undershooting your attacks, which ties into what I said above. When someone is dash-dancing, if you put out an attack that only hits the front edge of their dash-dance, then it will only hit them if they try to move forwards, and they have the whole of the dash backwards area to retreat into to avoid the attack. If the opponent never wants to move forwards to approach, then the attack that you throw out at that spacing doesn't really threaten them, and mostly serves as an opportunity for them to punish you. However, if you overshoot your attack to hit the area at the back of their dash-dance, then they can't dash backwards into that space; so they have to do something like move back even further than that, move forwards to get under or behind you/the attack, shield, attack, etc. or else get hit. The same principle applies to moving backwards as you attack (undershooting) to hit opponents approaching you.

The combination of taking stage control from the opponent and overshooting/undershooting your attacks is what forces the opponent to do something in neutral other than wait for you to mess up. If they know that you're going to swing at them every time without actually being in danger of hitting them nor taking space, then they have no reason to approach since they can just wait and reactively punish you. Whereas if you demonstrate/prove that you can punish them somehow for moving backwards, then you make them play more committally since they can't always fall back on "safe dash back to reactive punish if they do something".

Also, the 20XX pack doesn't have to be run on a computer; it's just a modification to the Melee .iso, so it can be run on a homebrewed Wii from a USB drive or SD card (which is what most people do, including me). Homebrewing the Wii is the time-consuming and (slightly) difficult part; setting up the game itself is fast and easy. There are guides for how to mod your console, and if you don't want to do that yourself then there are some Smashers in the SmashUK Facebook group who'll do it for you (for money and cost of parts, I think).
 
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Clint Jaguar

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@ Stride Stride LOL I didn't think you'd find this. Feel like such a scrub right now :laugh:

Looking back it was a lot more obvious what I was doing wrong. I know all about jab-resets but the problem is since I don't get a lot of practice against other players, I often stumble in scenarios I'm not familiar with. Learning how to get out of tech chases and DI'ing accordingly are two areas I clearly need to work on. My punish game that night was also lacking, so even when I did get a hit, I failed to make the most of it. Anyway, thanks for the help man. I look forward to playing again on Thursday.

Oh and I was aware about getting the 20XX pack on Wii but I haven't got around to modding it yet. I might as well do now though since it's currently collecting dust. At least until the PAL version of 20XX tournament edition is released.
 
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