How to Always UpThrow to Thunder

[Kanunuu]

So like many of you, I've been wondering how to consistently get a kill off of up throw. If they don't di it's easy but If they di towards you, (say at the ledge) the way to set it up is down throw. You really begin to run into troubles when you find people who know the matchup. If they di away from you there is no way to follow up. This also becomes an issue with platforms over your head, because you cannot true combo a thunder from a down throw if you jump. (Only at very specific percentages.)

But I ran into a thread the other day that talks about turning around to slow down your momentum and being able to connect. This is very difficult, and makes it impossible to react to the opponents di. Meaning you have to guess making it about a 1/3 chance. But I bring good news to my fellow pikachu mains, and I'm surprised no one has found this yet.

Your first jump maintains all the momentum you had from your run whatever movement you had on the ground. Your second jump on the other hand, completely stops your momentum, (assuming you don't hold the stick in a direction.) You can use this to your advantage if you have two separate buttons set to jump. Up throw to momentum cancel double jump immediate thunder and they will be spiked into you and you will get that juicy sweet spot. And if not, thunder will likely kill them off the top. This is much easier to do in a real match, and requires less prediction. (Note you can also get this easily off an up tilt.) The downsides of this tech is that you will likely have to change one of your shoulder buttons to jump, which I know for me affects the way I play sheik. The other downside is that if you miss the thunder you will be stuck in place without a double jump and will eat a hard punish. Use this however you please, but don't forget to thank ya boy Nunu.

 

[Noro~]

Uhm, thanks for old news?
There are 2 main ways to get the Upthrow > DI read true Thunder, both of which use a different way to cancel the momentum from your dash. Either by double jumping or by buffering a backhop during your jumpsquat. This has been discussed some time ago in one of these threads.

Personaly I prefer buffered backhop, which I can confirm is airdodgeproof if executed correctly (hard at first, but after a bit of grinding it becomes pure muscle memory) on most Characters at ~115-125% w/o staling and rage (tested this ALOT with our best Pikachu in Germany). This is also the fastest way to hit the thunder on DIed Upthrow.
I only tested Double Jump Canceled very briefly, but it seems to be pretty much an easier but slower version of the first one. You can use it at percentages at which the buffered backhop version doesn't work anymore (>130ish %), making it important to lean both. Though I only tested this version like once with my partner who said he couldn't airdodge the Thunder. I will test this further in the future.

and requires less prediction

Both versions require a buffered dash after the Upthrow, which makes reacting basically impossible. You'll have to predict the DI in both cases if you want to hit before they can airdodge. Or you can just try and look at your opponents controller

 

[Kanunuu]

I wasn't aware that this had been discussed before. You can react to the up throw di at higher percents as the opponent has more hitstun.

 

[Pikabunz]

Double jump thunder has always been a good method for combo'ing uthrow to thunder. I'd say it's about equal in effectiveness as backhop thunder. B-Reverse thunder will always be the fastest method though; it's also the hardest.

 

[Kanunuu]

Double jump thunder has always been a good method for combo'ing uthrow to thunder. I'd say it's about equal in effectiveness as backhop thunder. B-Reverse thunder will always be the fastest method though; it's also the hardest.

How do you b reverse and still get the juicy hit? It seems redundant to b reverse.

 

[Pikabunz]

You jump to down b to back before leaving the ground. This buffers thunder from a jump and you still go straight up.

 

[Noro~]

So you hit DownB and then back? Are you 100% sure that is faster than this:
> > ( + buffered)? It seems to me that those should be pretty much identical in speed.
Also, maybe I named my recommended version wrong? It, too, reverses Pikachu (meaning it will look to the left when executed like I this).
If your version is still faster, can you tell me at which % it true combos? Mine does at ~115-125 depending on the character w/o rage and staling (tested against another human who DIed and mashed airdodge in trainingmode).

 

[Pikabunz]

That's a b-reverse too, it's just a shortcut version of what I said. The back jump method has you jumping back first then using thunder. The thunder doesn't get buffered during jump squat, which makes it slower than the b-reverse thunder.

 

[Noro~]

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Pikabunz]

Actually, I don't even know if it's technically a b-reverse. I input it like a b-reverse but it comes out more like a turn-around b, which is what the inputs you posted are. And I think all the momentum being canceled is from the back jump being buffered during the jump squat. So you're more right for calling it buffered backhop thunder. I was only calling it b-reverse because it has the same inputs as a b-reverse.

 

[Noro~]

So, are there noticable differences in how fast these two methods come out? I'd love to lab this myself, but I lack the tools to break it down frame by frame.

 

[Pikabunz]

(+) and (+ > ) both come out equally fast as long as you buffer the thunder from jump.

 

[Lomogoto]

It does not actually b-reverse
It is dashing, jumping backwards, then buffering down b

It is not actually very technical and is much easier to do when it is described properly
Not b-reversing, jumping backwards
If you dash and just jump backwards you will see pikachu actually jump straight up; this is what stops your momentum

 

[Lomogoto]

It breaks my heart when i see ESAM get the right read and go for the double jump thunder that is airdodged when he could be doing this and actually getting the kill
But he is the pro so maybe theres something to it i dunno

 

[Pikabunz]

The technical part is buffering down-b which has to be done before jumping backwards.

 

[Kanunuu]

I personally think the double jump method is more accurate and easier, (assuming you set a shoulder button to jump.)

 

[Noro~]

Easier, but not more accurate. It all comes down to muscle memory. Trust me, when I teached the backhop variant to our best Pikachu over here in Germany, he went from hitting it 1/30 times to like 1/2 in just one long training session and now both of us are very consistant. It nets us quite a lot of kills.
Since the only difference seems to be that backhop works maybe 10% earlier than double jump you can use whatever you're most comfortable with. Or learn both in order to increase the percentage window in which you can connect Upthrow to Thunder.

 

[Kanunuu]

What are your thoughts on fd as a stage choice to be able to connect the thunder without jumping. I think perfect pivoting would allow this to connect at sooner percentages than jumping would. I've never been able to test this and if this doesn't work with pp, then perhaps dash might because the dash ends early and you can buffer thunder from a dash. Just something to think about

 

[Pikabunz]

Prefect pivot doesn't cover enough distance and dash doesn't end early enough.

 

[Lomogoto]

The technical part is buffering down-b which has to be done before jumping backwards.

This is completely incorrect and why everyone thinks it is hard

Try to run forward, then pull back as you press jump and roll the stick to the down possition
You dont even need to buffer down b if they are at higher percent and go to high for it to connect, you can do thunder a bit after

 

[A10theHero]

Just to make sure I'm understanding this, the inputs would be like this:
I up throw and say my opponent DIs to the right, in this example. I run to the right and press jump. Then during the four frame jumpsquat, I input Thunder and then back (or alternatively diagonal down + B?). Is this correct?

 

[Lomogoto]

Just to make sure I'm understanding this, the inputs would be like this:
I up throw and say my opponent DIs to the right, in this example. I run to the right and press jump. Then during the four frame jumpsquat, I input Thunder and then back (or alternatively diagonal down + B?). Is this correct?

I believe as long as a backward input is pressed durring the jumpsquat you will connect thunder with yourself, no matter if it is before or after the thunder
I recommend first trying the back input before thunder though:
, +, +
This way you can jump and press back at once making it somewhat less strict timing wise

I have found the diagonal input harder to do consistently because it is not a full backward input so you keep some momentum (sometimes too much) but if you can make it work go for it

I do not know how practical this will end up being, but with thunder at the end you can adjust the height of the spike by not buffering it and waiting to gain some height first

 

[Pikabunz]

This is completely incorrect and why everyone thinks it is hard

Try to run forward, then pull back as you press jump and roll the stick to the down possition
You dont even need to buffer down b if they are at higher percent and go to high for it to connect, you can do thunder a bit after

You need to buffer the thunder if you want it to combo from the 100-125% range. At higher percents, it will stop working because they go too high up. That's when you start using double jump thunder or your method.

Just to make sure I'm understanding this, the inputs would be like this:
I up throw and say my opponent DIs to the right, in this example. I run to the right and press jump. Then during the four frame jumpsquat, I input Thunder and then back (or alternatively diagonal down + B?). Is this correct?

That is correct.

 

[A10theHero]

Random question:
Would changing c-stick to Specials make this easier to pull off?

 

[Pikabunz]

Random question:
Would changing c-stick to Specials make this easier to pull off?

It might. You would probably have to change one of shoulder buttons to jump though.

 

[A10theHero]

I think I'm gonna test this out when I get a chance.
Even if it is easier to pull off, I don't know if it'd be worth a permanent switch.
Sure the Bidou would also be easier to perform as well but it'd be giving up PP tilts, aerials with the c-stick, and tilts in general (for my c-stick, which is set to attack).

 

[Noro~]

I think that techs get easier the less fingers you have to use to perform them. If I understand you correctly, you want to use three:
Left thumb -
Left index finger - (jump)
Right thumb -

It'll propably come down to muscle memory, but I find it hard to perfectly time up even two finger inputs. For the Upthrow-Thunder I just roll my finger from to . That way I never ever press a frame or two before which would ruin the tech and which I can see happen if you do it via special-sticking.