How to actually approach with diddy kong?

[guedes the brawler]

i picked him up and i'm struggling to close in without monkey flip (which gets predictable fast)... sometimes i just don't have the time and space to pick the banana (vs campers or people with good rushdown) and i generally get banana-blocked anyways...

 

[Dre89]

The main reason why Diddy's approach is one of the better ones is because he's fast but also has grab threat both from his dash/pivot grab and his sideb. That means you can punish people for shielding. In turn, people who get punished for shielding will be forced to use other options, in which case you can punish them with stuff like nanas or fair.

Basically what you always want to be doing is not allowing the opponent to know whether you'll grab or attack until the very ast moment, or until they commit to an option and you punish it. To do this you mix up your movement and options. That doesn't mean you always have to approach from the ground either. For example, jumping over someone and z dropping a nana on their shield pressures them because the nana will bounce up and hit them again if they don't do anything. This means they'll either have to shield the second hit, in which case you can grab them. Or they have to avoid it, which means you can punish that option with an attack.

That's just one example. There's plenty of different options. You can run up to someone, stop to bait an action then JC toss. Even if they shield your nana you can full hop fair to recatch the nana and hit them if they contest for it. Basically just mix up your approaches so they never know what option to take.

 

[Mikkelmann]

If you can always have a banana in hand if you do you will strike frear into your foe XD. But really bananas are great to have and if you master JCGT you'll have better use of them. Don't go in spamming grab you will get puinsh for it use short hop arieals like fair to space and you shoud be good. Monkey flip is good but if you can pop gun reverse it's 10X better. Cause you can fake out people and make them think you're going in but faking them out and get a free punish off of it.

 

[Dre89]

If you can always have a banana in hand if you do you will strike frear into your foe XD. But really bananas are great to have and if you master JCGT you'll have better use of them. Don't go in spamming grab you will get puinsh for it use short hop arieals like fair to space and you shoud be good. Monkey flip is good but if you can pop gun reverse it's 10X better. Cause you can fake out people and make them think you're going in but faking them out and get a free punish off of it.

Nana's are pretty overrated for approaching because aerials beat all your options with a nana in hand. They're only a decent approach tool against people who just shield because they don't know how to catch them or platform camp you.

Don't get me wrong they're still a good approach mix up every now and then. But against an opponent who won't commit to anything you have more options without a nana in your hand.

This is of course assuming no iZACing. If you can iZAC consistently then nana approaches are insanely good lol.

 

[guedes the brawler]

the hell is iZAC?

 

[Dre89]

the hell is iZAC?

Well a ZAC is a Z-drop aerial catch. Which means you z drop an item and catch it with an aerial. Normally however you can only do it at the apex of your jump, or you can do it when you're descending but you'll need to double jump-aerial to catch the item.

An iZAC is a specific type of ZAC where you do a a rising aerial with an item in hand. To do it, you have to jump, quickly Z drop and then aerial. You can do it with a short hop or a full hop. The timing is difficult because if you press Z too quickly after pressing jump, you'll just cancel the jump and do an item toss. You also can't be pressing the control stick when you press Z otherwise you'll just toss the item.

But if you get it down consistently, it basically means you can do aerials with a nana in your hand.

 

[busken]

Well a ZAC is a Z-drop aerial catch. Which means you z drop an item and catch it with an aerial. Normally however you can only do it at the apex of your jump, or you can do it when you're descending but you'll need to double jump-aerial to catch the item.

An iZAC is a specific type of ZAC where you do a a rising aerial with an item in hand. To do it, you have to jump, quickly Z drop and then aerial. You can do it with a short hop or a full hop. The timing is difficult because if you press Z too quickly after pressing jump, you'll just cancel the jump and do an item toss. You also can't be pressing the control stick when you press Z otherwise you'll just toss the item.

But if you get it down consistently, it basically means you can do aerials with a nana in your hand.

Thanks, really cool!

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy approaches by using bananas to trap the opponent as he moves in and reacts to their defense. Blocking a banana pluck may get you grabbed, for example. When two attacks are layered on top of one another like this so that defending against the first will get you hit by the second, its called a frame trap. Diddy might rely on frame traps more than any other character in neutral, besides maybe...Ness? Copy and paste from another thread because I'm lazy:

Since the damage and KB nerfs Diddy needs to get in cleanly many more times than before and the banana is how he does this. Opponents need to be able to stop Diddy from setting up by either patiently plucking it behind him and immediately jumping, z-catching, and fast falling back to the ground, or aggressively b-reverse plucking the banana towards the opponent from mid range and approaching with fair, dash grab, nair, and empty hop mixups as the banana falls and traps. If you can stop Diddy from setting this up successfully enough he will not get the damage output he now needs.

This is a lot harder to deal with than it sounds on paper. Even if you defend against the banana really well, say, by z-catching it and immediately throwing it away or back at Diddy, or quickly jumping and destroying it, you're still being forced into a situation where you have to do something and the grab/fair mixup is on the way. It's like how Dedede mains use gordo, it can be defended against but you have to do something, which allows Dedede to come at you the way he wants.

Except Dedede's are explaining why Gordo isn't trash. Diddy's use this strategy to make bananas the best projectile in the game. There are dozens of of ways to approach with bananas in Smash 4 because now we can repluck a banana out of our hand after the initial spawn pluck, in addition to four directions to throw and a z-drop. Different setups require different defense maneuvers. Because the Diddy player will know which way he will approach out of many setups and the opponent has to guess or react, skilled banana approaches are the most free mix up in the game. Opponents will want to stop Diddy from setting up in the first place to stop these mixups before they happen.

 

[busken]

Diddy approaches by using bananas to trap the opponent as he moves in and reacts to their defense. Blocking a banana pluck may get you grabbed, for example. When two attacks are layered on top of one another like this so that defending against the first will get you hit by the second, its called a frame trap. Diddy might rely on frame traps more than any other character in neutral, besides maybe...Ness? Copy and paste from another thread because I'm lazy:

Since the damage and KB nerfs Diddy needs to get in cleanly many more times than before and the banana is how he does this. Opponents need to be able to stop Diddy from setting up by either patiently plucking it behind him and immediately jumping, z-catching, and fast falling back to the ground, or aggressively b-reverse plucking the banana towards the opponent from mid range and approaching with fair, dash grab, nair, and empty hop mixups as the banana falls and traps. If you can stop Diddy from setting this up successfully enough he will not get the damage output he now needs.

This is a lot harder to deal with than it sounds on paper. Even if you defend against the banana really well, say, by z-catching it and immediately throwing it away or back at Diddy, or quickly jumping and destroying it, you're still being forced into a situation where you have to do something and the grab/fair mixup is on the way. It's like how Dedede mains use gordo, it can be defended against but you have to do something, which allows Dedede to come at you the way he wants.

Except Dedede's are explaining why Gordo isn't trash. Diddy's use this strategy to make bananas the best projectile in the game. There are dozens of of ways to approach with bananas in Smash 4 because now we can repluck a banana out of our hand after the initial spawn pluck, in addition to four directions to throw and a z-drop. Different setups require different defense maneuvers. Because the Diddy player will know which way he will approach out of many setups and the opponent has to guess or react, skilled banana approaches are the most free mix up in the game. Opponents will want to stop Diddy from setting up in the first place to stop these mixups before they happen.

What mix-ups/options do you have with a banana in hand, or even on the floor with stage control. In hand, I can think of normal toss(normal toss OOS), (normal toss out of monkey flip crawl ) (normal toss out of dash) (perfect pivot toss) <-- useless imo then you have glide toss (glide toss OOS) (glide toss out of monkey flip crawl). Z catch aerials(jump z-drop aerial). that's all the options i can think off with a banana in hand, but do you know anything else you can do with banana in hand? With a banana on the ground what options are their to your advantage if you know any?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

What mix-ups/options do you have with a banana in hand, or even on the floor with stage control. In hand, I can think of normal toss(normal toss OOS), (normal toss out of monkey flip crawl ) (normal toss out of dash) (perfect pivot toss) <-- useless imo then you have glide toss (glide toss OOS) (glide toss out of monkey flip crawl). Z catch aerials(jump z-drop aerial). that's all the options i can think off with a banana in hand, but do you know anything else you can do with banana in hand? With a banana on the ground what options are their to your advantage if you know any?

If you simply throw the banana at a grounded opponent and he shields or spot dodges, you could prolly run in for a grab if your close enough. But if this is all you have with bananas it will get predictable fast; you need to mix it up with two other main things: the pluck and the z-drop.

The pluck is what we got in exchange for the removal of glide tossing. Bananas can now be plucked again to toss the banana above the opponent with a banana in hand after the initial spawn pluck. When the move is b-reversed, you can quickly lob the banana above people's heads and the animation is fast enough for Diddy to approach as it is falling. If they shield, they get grabbed. If they jump up to try and catch or destroy the banana, they risk engaging Diddy air to air where he dominates with his incredible speed to range ratio. Obviously this is simplifying it a bit, as good opponents will learn to deal better deal with this setup as they get more familiar with the matchup. But if you can aim the pluck correctly it creates a seriously brutal pressure situation where the opponent has to deal with the falling banana and another attack coming at him at pretty much the same time or immediately afterwards.

The z-drop allows you to laglessly send a banana towards an opponent as you jump over them on the ground or when you are above them in the air. You can do whatever you want immediately after the drop, such as fast fall bair or nair, or land and pivot to go for the grab if they shield. As other people have said in this thread, z-dropping also allows Diddy to use aerials with a banana in his hand by doing a z-drop followed by an immediate aerial. This can really catch people off guard because when Diddy has a banana in hand that's what they will be worrying about most.

Bananas are Diddy's everything since the patch, so opponents will do what they can to take them away from you. So you can use grounded bananas as lures and hit the guy with something like fair as he goes to scoop it up or destroy it. Also remember that z-scooping, or z-catching a grounded item, is now a thing. By running up to a banana and jumping with an immediate z-scoop Diddy can quickly and safely get the banana back in his hand for the shenanigans mentioned above. When you learn to reduce as much downtime as you can while controlling the banana Diddy can get his setups very fast and the pressure becomes a lot harder to deal with.

Edit:Glide tossing is actually still in!

 

[busken]

If you simply throw the banana at a grounded opponent and he shield or spot dodges, you could prolly run in for a grab if your close enough. But if this is all you have with bananas it will get predictable fast; you need to mix it up with two other main things: the pluck and the z-drop.

The pluck is what we got in exchange for the removal of glide tossing. Bananas can now be plucked again to toss the banana above the opponent with a banana in hand after the initial spawn pluck. When the move is b-reversed, you can quickly lob the banana above people's heads and the animation is fast enough for Diddy to approach as it is falling. If they shield, they get grabbed. If they jump up to try and catch or destroy the banana, they risk engaging Diddy air to air where he dominates with his incredible speed to range ratio. Obviously this is simplifying it a bit, as good opponents will learn to deal better deal with this setup as they get more familiar with the matchup. But if you can aim the pluck correctly is creates a seriously brutal pressure situation where the opponent has to deal with the falling banana and another attack coming at him at pretty much the same time or immediately afterwards.

The z-drop allows you to laglessly send a banana towards an opponent as you jump over them on the ground or when you are above them in the air. You can do whatever you want immediately after the drop, such as fast fall bair or nair, or land and pivot to go for the grab if they shield. As other people have said in this thread, z-dropping also allows Diddy to use aerials with a banana in his hand by doing a z-drop followed by an immediate aerial. This can really catch people off guard because when Diddy has a banana in hand thats what they will be worrying about most.

Bananas are Diddy's everything since the patch, so opponents will do what they can to take them away from you. So you can use grounded bananas as lures and hit the guy with something like fair as he goes to scoop it up or destroy it. Also remember that z-scooping, or z-catching a grounded item, is now a thing. By running up to a banana and jumping with an immediate z-scoop Diddy can quickly and safely get the banana back in his hand for the shenanigans mentioned above. When you learn to reduce as much downtime as you can while controlling the banana Diddy can get his setups very fast and it becomes and the pressure becomes a lot harder to deal with.

So with a banana already in hand you can pluck out of your hand with down B?...didn't know that. The other half of what you said is what I already said in my post above, but thanks for teaching me something. It feels situational but a mix-up is a mix-up none the less and I appreciate your contribution. Thanks :]

 

[RedBeefBaron]

So with a banana already in hand you can pluck out of your hand with down B?...didn't know that. The other half of what you said is what I already said in my post above, but thanks for teaching me something. It feels situational but a mix-up is a mix-up none the less and I appreciate your contribution. Thanks :]

Try it out. It's kind of hard to explain on paper but that setup is godlike with Diddy's dash grab and normals.

 

[busken]

Outside of banana approaches(J.C. Toss, Z.A.C, etc) what are diddy's other approach options? In terms of melee, I think SH buffered f-air is good, since b-air is pretty much a kill option now. Dash Attack seems really bad imo, I don't even think it crosses up shields. Approaching with U-air seems pretty odd, any other niche it has over other options? Monkey Flip approaches are pretty good. Dash Grab is pretty obvious. Anything else? What approach options do you guys use? What approach options do you think your opponent will expect?

 

[Pazx]

(normal toss out of monkey flip crawl )

I haven't tried this but on paper it seems filthy. Any success with it?

 

[busken]

I haven't tried this but on paper it seems filthy. Any success with it?

It's really good just for the fact that you can get punished for it unless they anticipate it. Even if you don't bait a reaction with the monkey flip you still punish them because now you just closed a gap between you and them at a safe distance, which means that you have a banana in hand and they are closer to the ledge. If you do convert you get a hefty punish because you can banana into pretty much anything you want.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Wow, just realized that this is still possible today thanks to the front page.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3_vOtY5kCc

It's on, now.