How Punishable is QD?

[Y-L]

I know that QD is one of Ike's most useful tools. In the case, I am talking about using it as an attack, not by JC'ing it. I notice that sometimes I can get shield grabbed out of it, sometimes after the attack is finished I pass through them. When is it safe to use and when is it not?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's excellent as a combo extender, used out of grabs and as a mix-up. It is however very susceptible to crouch cancelling, making it only okay as an approach option.

 

[Y-L]

It's excellent as a combo extender, used out of grabs and as a mix-up. It is however very susceptible to crouch cancelling, making it only okay as an approach option.

Yes, I know but what I regarding is getting shield grabbed when you QD. Sometimes you go past your opponent when it connects and other times you are in front allowing you to be shield grabbed.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yes. It's unsafe on shield. On the flipside, the possibility of QD lets you get JC grabs on reads.

 

[Commander]

Instead of just going in for attacks, decide what you are going to do with quick draw during the first few necessary frames of charging, where Ike brings Ragnell up, so you can better react you your opponent. Instead of thinking "I'm going to grab/attack/up smash/shffl/tech to shine/whatever" look at what your opponent is doing and then decide. One thing I notice is that a lot of low level players, or people unused to fighting Ike, will immediately go into shield when they see quick draw which just gets me fun grab combos. Players who are better or have more match up experience tend to react in ways that either force you to jump out early, or you have to chase them with an aerial instead of using the attack/grab/whatever. This should help with just using quickdraw over all.

Regarding your actual question, the QD attack is susceptible to being shielded and crouch canceled. In these instances if you are dead set on using the attack make sure you are using the auto attack by holding A instead of using the manual attack. The auto attack hits as soon as the person is in range which maximizes your distance from your opponent and makes it a little less likely that you will be punished. Be aware the auto attack has less damage and knock back than the manual attack. In some cases this leads to better/easier follow ups, other times it just isn't what you need.

 

[SpiderMad]

The auto attack is weaker than the manual? Didn't know that, does it also hit slightly less far?

Can Auto QD Attack be safe on shield if it's max charge?

 

[Fortress]

QD is pretty punishable on shield if you rely on it way too much. Also, if you get into the habit of QD'ing the moment your opponent puts distance between you and them, then they can just bait out your QD. Don't over-rely on it for your approaches, and make sure to mix it up.

 

[Commander]

The auto attack is weaker than the manual? Didn't know that, does it also hit slightly less far?

Can Auto QD Attack be safe on shield if it's max charge?

I said it has less knock back. I'm not sure how safe on shield it is since I finalize my QD options moments before I reach my opponent. If I see a shield I grab so I never tested it out. You will be hitting with near the max range of the QD attack though.

 

[SpiderMad]

Meant slightly less far as the animation/hitboxes' reach

 

[Commander]

No its hitbox is the same size as the manual attack. I think the hitbox in the air is a little farther than the one on the ground though. That goes for both manual and auto.

 

[Drodeka]

The attack itself I would rate moderately punishable, about the same as his forward tilt.
However, with proper distance and assuming you are paying attention to your enemy, the actual act of just entering quickdraw from a decent distance is completely unpunishable, thanks to Ike's ability to jump out of it and jump cancel into grabs/up smashes.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The QD attack is punishable but you have JC grab JC up-smash jump (maybe also reverse) -> nair / bair that can't all be covered

 

[TylerX5]

The auto attack hits as soon as the person is in range which maximizes your distance from your opponent and makes it a little less likely that you will be punished. Be aware the auto attack has less damage and knock back than the manual attack. In some cases this leads to better/easier follow ups, other times it just isn't what you need.

I did some lab work and this is what I came up with by play testing

1. Automatic QD attack does not do less damage nor knockback, both of those are determined by the how long the B button is held down for

2. It does not activate as soon as the person is in range, and I was able to hit the target sooner with manuel QD attack than with automatic QD attack

 

[Meta Knight!]

it kind of depends on what your doing after QD like up smash or JC Grab!

 

[Kascade]

2. It does not activate as soon as the person is in range, and I was able to hit the target sooner with manuel QD attack than with automatic QD attack

Just to add onto this, if you'd like to have visuals of this I was playing around with brawlbox and dolphin today. I knew the auto was later than you could do with manual but I wanted to see how much of a difference there is.

From what I saw in training mode I'm willing to guess either the top or both circles in front of Ike are his activation triggers, which also explains why ducking kirbies sometimes don't cause Ike to trigger QD auto attack.

I also have some pictures when I was messing around in training mode. http://imgur.com/a/cJb4N

If you manually activate late on shield you'd get a better chance of sliding through your opponent too, depends on your QD speed at the time. Bonus points, manual activations let you clash with projectiles instead of running headfirst into them.

 

[RomanCenturionX]

Depends on what situation your opponent is in at a given time, I happen to use the QD attack when my opponent is going into knockdown animation as a pseudo-tech chase after a combo, to cover my return on stage, or as a mix up after a litany of QD grabs or QD wave dashes to catch the opponent off guard. So in that respect you can typically avoid punishment provided that your opponent doesn't expect it or can't do anything to stop it. Otherwise most players that I have come across when they first play Ike tend to shield whenever you charge QD so it wouldn't be safe in that scenario.

 

[GeZ]

You shouldn't get grabbed out of QD because you should very rarely use QD attack outside of combos. The potential of QD > grab/ QD > aerial/ QD > Usmash/ QD > Wavedash, is just too good to use the regular attack out of it.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You shouldn't get grabbed out of QD because you should very rarely use QD attack outside of combos. The potential of QD > grab/ QD > aerial/ QD > Usmash/ QD > Wavedash, is just too good to use the regular attack out of it.

I was about to argue before I remembered that while I do use QD attack regularly, I use it as a low-percent follow-up out of throws. Most of the time you should be using grab/aerial, with some wavedash fake-outs mixed in.