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How Final Smashes will work?

KingofPhantoms

The Spook Factor
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Well, it's been bugging me for quite some time now, but a lot of people (at least on the forum) seem to want the way FSs are activated to be changed: Many wanting a combo/damage meter of sorts, that builds as a player deals damage and/or performs combos successfully. I personally don't like this concept at all, mostly because it seems unoriginal, something that sounds like it could be placed in any fighting game. I haven't seen any games with such things, but I highly doubt something like it hasn't been done before.

The Smash Bros. series has never been like any other fighting game I've played.
It's not like Mortal Kombat or games like Marvel VS Capcom, in any way. The stages aren't just a bunch of perfectly flat ground with different backrounds, the strongest attacks aren't triggered by pressing a bunch a buttons in a specific order or severely hurting an enemy, and they battle results rely on sending people flying and keeping them off the stage, not just beating the heck out of them until they drop dead. (save for stamina battles)

I don't however necessarily want the floating ball and random spawning concept to return, the randomness of the Smash ball can make the results of battle vary to a great extent. Not to mention how, while who breaks the ball relies on the amount of damage dealt to it, it also relies on who hits it when it has been weakend, meaning one person, regardless of their score in battle, could deal a heavy amount of damage to it, only for someone else to deliever the shattering blow. Furthermore, the item can be turned on or off like any other item in the game. If someone doing good in a battle breaks it, it can give them an overly large advantage in term of score, and someone doing bad can steal first place in the battle, (if a timed battle that is) to me, in timed battles A Smash Ball is like the Blue Shell in the Mario Kart series: It comes at random, it's very difficult to avoid, it can seriously mess up the player with the highest score/place, the only difference to me is that Blue Shells can't be turned off, at least in the case where you can have other items, all items in the MK series can't be turned off individually, you either have all items on or none at all.

That aside, I think there should be another way for Final Smashes to be activated. A list of a few concepts I came up with is below. I don't necessarily mean for only one of them to be used, but I mean multiple of these could be used for the game.

High Damage: For every 200% dealt to a player (as in someone's damage meter reaches 200%, or somehow reaches 400% etc ) A Smash Ball will appear, it can still be broken by anyone, but how much damage a player can deal to it depends on their damage meter. For example, a player with 200% will deal heavy damage to it, while a player with lower damage will hardly do anything to it.

K.O: If the total amount of K.Os any player has done can be added together to equal 10, then a Smash Ball will spawn.It can be broken by anyone. The amount of damage players can deal to it works the same way as in the above concept.

Helping the Match itself: If no one is K.O'd by another player for 1 Minute and 20 seconds, a Smash Ball will spawn at the center of the stage. The amount of damage a player deals to it has the same rules applying to it as in the above ideas.

Finally, I think the Smash Balls should not be listed among the items, and instead be in the lsit of rules. You can choose from the above methods, all methods, the original random spawning, or lastly turn it off altogether. In Wifi mode With Anyone, the choices are limited to all spawning methods or no spawning at all. For all other Multiplayer battle modes, all choices are available.

I think this would fix many issues, as it would make Smash Balls spawning more predictable, and so players may be able to purposly activate it, or try to avoid it. There are some problems I can think of with them as well, but I don't really feel like listing them.

Please share your opinion and thoughts of these ideas!

Grimer does not approve of hate comments :088:
 

Big-Cat

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Well, it's been bugging me for quite some time now, but a lot of people (at least on the forum) seem to want the way FSs are activated to be changed: Many wanting a combo/damage meter of sorts, that builds as a player deals damage and/or performs combos successfully. I personally don't like this concept at all, mostly because it seems unoriginal, something that sounds like it could be placed in any fighting game. I haven't seen any games with such things, but I highly doubt something like it hasn't been done before.
The concept of a super meter wasn't anything new back when it first came out. You can easily see predecessors in things like MP bars in RPGS. Even then, nothing is original, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.


The Smash Bros. series has never been like any other fighting game I've played.
It's not like Mortal Kombat or games like Marvel VS Capcom, in any way. The stages aren't just a bunch of perfectly flat ground with different backrounds, the strongest attacks aren't triggered by pressing a bunch a buttons in a specific order or severely hurting an enemy, and they battle results rely on sending people flying and keeping them off the stage, not just beating the heck out of them until they drop dead. (save for stamina battles)
For the most part, there a lot of fundamental similarities with Smash and other fighting games. The whole pressing buttons in some order thing is way exaggerated especially if you learn to block and not to mash during every string.


High Damage: For every 200% dealt to a player (as in someone's damage meter reaches 200%, or somehow reaches 400% etc ) A Smash Ball will appear, it can still be broken by anyone, but how much damage a player can deal to it depends on their damage meter. For example, a player with 200% will deal heavy damage to it, while a player with lower damage will hardly do anything to it.

K.O: If the total amount of K.Os any player has done can be added together to equal 10, then a Smash Ball will spawn.It can be broken by anyone. The amount of damage players can deal to it works the same way as in the above concept.

Helping the Match itself: If no one is K.O'd by another player for 1 Minute and 20 seconds, a Smash Ball will spawn at the center of the stage. The amount of damage a player deals to it has the same rules applying to it as in the above ideas.

Finally, I think the Smash Balls should not be listed among the items, and instead be in the lsit of rules. You can choose from the above methods, all methods, the original random spawning, or lastly turn it off altogether. In Wifi mode With Anyone, the choices are limited to all spawning methods or no spawning at all. For all other Multiplayer battle modes, all choices are available.
First one is pretty much a Pity Final Smash except a little fairer, but still a dumb comeback mechanic. I don't really see the need for the second one. The third one can be avoided if people actually bother to attack each other and putting other incentives to attack like counter hits (not like Marth's) and counter incentives like Negative Warning which nerfs your damage temporarily if you don't attack.

Smash Balls, in general, are a very "ghetto" way of trying to reinvent a wheel that doesn't need reinventing.
 

KingofPhantoms

The Spook Factor
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The concept of a super meter wasn't anything new back when it first came out. You can easily see predecessors in things like MP bars in RPGS. Even then, nothing is original, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.




For the most part, there a lot of fundamental similarities with Smash and other fighting games. The whole pressing buttons in some order thing is way exaggerated especially if you learn to block and not to mash during every string.




First one is pretty much a Pity Final Smash except a little fairer, but still a dumb comeback mechanic. I don't really see the need for the second one. The third one can be avoided if people actually bother to attack each other and putting other incentives to attack like counter hits (not like Marth's) and counter incentives like Negative Warning which nerfs your damage temporarily if you don't attack.

Smash Balls, in general, are a very "ghetto" way of trying to reinvent a wheel that doesn't need reinventing.
Yes, I can see what you mean, I just wanted to come up with a way of allowing the Smash Ball to stay, but make it more predictable. I just don't really think the combo meter thing would fit well into the Smash Series. But opinions are opinions, and thank you for pointing out some acutal issues with my concepts, instead of just saying that it's stupid without explaining why you think so.

As for your thoughts on the third way, I've seen battles that have lasted for several minutes without anyone making a K.O, which is not reffering to taunt matches. Even on stages like Final Destination, it may take a while, or sometimes at the very last second for a K.O to be made, but this mostly applies to duals I've seen, though I don't know whether or not tournaments would ban this method of spawning.

Also, you did not make it very clear what you thought of the higher damage a player has, the more damage they deal to the smash ball concept.

Another thing, as I said before, I was trying to think of some ways to avoid the combo meter, as well the random spawing. The one thing I don't know about tournaments is if items are tolerated sometimes, or never, (but I assume they are banned) so I wanted a different way to keep the impossible to predict spawning out of play, but come up with other ways to keep the Smash Ball, but make it more fair and predictable. These were the best I could come up with for the time being.
 

Holder of the Heel

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If it doesn't destroy a sense of balance I'd appreciate a meter. If not then give me the Smash Ball that I can turn off, or on if I want to play a crazy match. Though honestly they aren't mutually exclusive, you can make a meter and give them bigger attacks, and make Final Smashes an entirely separate and larger thing.
 

Big-Cat

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Yes, I can see what you mean, I just wanted to come up with a way of allowing the Smash Ball to stay, but make it more predictable. I just don't really think the combo meter thing would fit well into the Smash Series. But opinions are opinions, and thank you for pointing out some acutal issues with my concepts, instead of just saying that it's stupid without explaining why you think so.
I think the implementation of combos is something that is frequently underestimated. They really speed up the game in that matches don't have to take eight minutes on three lives each. I'll go more into this in a bit.

As for your thoughts on the third way, I've seen battles that have lasted for several minutes without anyone making a K.O, which is not reffering to taunt matches. Even on stages like Final Destination, it may take a while, or sometimes at the very last second for a K.O to be made, but this mostly applies to duals I've seen, though I don't know whether or not tournaments would ban this method of spawning.
This is mostly a result of a mix of Smash's lack of flow in attacks and that Brawl's changes to the system made it to where you're penalized for just approaching with reduced hitstun, strong shields (which need to be revamped altogether), and random tripping. The game needs to be where you are encouraged for going on the offensive in some way possible - be it poking, whiff punishing, or just plain rushing in.

Also, you did not make it very clear what you thought of the higher damage a player has, the more damage they deal to the smash ball concept.
I have come to loathe comeback mechanics like this and Lucario's Aura (seriously, whose idea was this?). I still think, in general, that Smash Balls are a very poor concept, and it doesn't help that it was one of many OP items in a game like Brawl. On that topic, Final Smashes (sounds like an Astral Finish or Fatality move when you think about it) need to be rebalanced, big time.

Another thing, as I said before, I was trying to think of some ways to avoid the combo meter, as well the random spawing. The one thing I don't know about tournaments is if items are tolerated sometimes, or never, (but I assume they are banned) so I wanted a different way to keep the impossible to predict spawning out of play, but come up with other ways to keep the Smash Ball, but make it more fair and predictable. These were the best I could come up with for the time being.
I don't even play Smash anymore and I know that items are turned off. No offense, but have you been under a rock this whole time? In regards to unpredictability, this is how it should be. The random variables should come from the decisions made by the players themselves, not the game. If the players know what they're doing, it's very easy to have consecutive matches that don't resemble each other a whole lot. I never liked random, uncontrollable outcomes for moves, but I'm perfectly fine with items having this effect.
 

BridgesWithTurtles

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I think that as long as the Final Smash is tethered to an item, they'll remain in irrelevancy. Since Final Smashes are optional, they aren't designed to compliment character playstyles or movesets. They're little more than overpowered or underpowered items, depending on the character. The Smash Ball just feels like the devs didn't have enough faith in the concept to make Final Smashes an actual new gameplay feature. I'm not sure if tying them to a meter or whatever other option would solve all of their problems, but I really think that they'll never be taken seriously as long as they remain items (even if they were balanced).
 

Dark Phazon

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I think that as long as the Final Smash is tethered to an item, they'll remain in irrelevancy. Since Final Smashes are optional, they aren't designed to compliment character playstyles or movesets. They're little more than overpowered or underpowered items, depending on the character. The Smash Ball just feels like the devs didn't have enough faith in the concept to make Final Smashes an actual new gameplay feature. I'm not sure if tying them to a meter or whatever other option would solve all of their problems, but I really think that they'll never be taken seriously as long as they remain items (even if they were balanced).
Totally agree.
 

Pazzo.

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I think that the entire idea behind the Smash Balls as items was more or less of an experiment for the Devs. to try to add the "fatality" idea with a smash twist.
 

AnOkayDM

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I like the concept of Final Smashes, but they do need to be revamped. I kinda like the idea of a meter? That way you can choose when to unleash it. But to be honest, the only real problem I had with Smash Balls, and the reason I don't play with Final Smashes, is because even on the lowest frequency, they spawn way too often. The other thing is, when one shows up, the battle immediately shifts away from each other and to the Smash Ball. Granting a Final Smash shouldn't interrupt the match like that.

Also, some of the FSs themselves need to be redesigned, but that's another topic.
 

LaniusShrike

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I actually really like how the appearance of a smash ball immediately changes the fight into a mini game to acquire it. Of course, a lot of characters are better at it than others...

The important thing is that they always, always have to be optional. I wouldn't mind the ability to change the relative frequency of each item and to be able to save different settings.
 

AnOkayDM

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Mmmmmmmeh.

If I wanted a minigame battle, I'd play Mario Party. When I'm fighting with my friends, I want the action to stay solely concentrated on the fight.
 
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