How exactly do you zone with projectiles?

[Bravo_10]

The thought has come to mind because I recently struggled mightily against some extremely defensive Peach play in my last tournament. It seemed like every time we reset back to neutral, Peach would run away, grab a turnip, and set about out-camping me with turnips.

I'd feel like in the end, Link should be able to out-camp Peach because he has more projectiles and can toss them at more varied angles, but for some reason, everything I tried was denied by turnips. They just sweep out this arc in front of Peach that denies anything else thrown in the vicinity. Because the hitbox doesn't go away upon contact with anything but a character's hurtbox, a single turnip can block both a bomb and boomerang in a single throw.

Now I lost for more reasons than being simply out-camped. For one, this Peach player understood very well that my strongest combos would come off of my grab. Staying airborne as much as possible helped avoid any serious damage from my stray hit confirms, but the longer the match progressed, the more frustrated I became with my inability to deal more damage from range than Peach. I guess I really have no idea what you're supposed to do. How do you deal with a camping Peach in neutral? And really, how do you effectively control space with your projectiles against other characters? I'd really like to know.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Ah, the art of camping. My expertise. Being an annoying prick that destroys the game for everyone else.

It's actually interesting question, but the answer is very big and would without problem suffice to be a very extensive guide. Im not in a mood to write such a big thing(sorry) so I think Ill just hand you some pointers where to start and how to think instead.

The main thing I think you need to get around is the mindset, you need to be patient. The goal of camping is avoiding damage, not inflict it. If you can make a stock last more than 2 minutes on average and take your opponents stocks somewhat quicker than you are loosing them, you win. When you are camping you are threatening with the Time win condition, not the stock count.

This means that you need to understand your opponents attack options so that you can move outside of them. You need to be able to react to what your opponent does, not predict. Predicting is a risk as you might be wrong and get punished for it. So all your movement needs to be reaction based in general. Think a lot about what moves are "okay" to be hit by, for example vs Falco being grabbed is okay and vs ICs being hit by aerials is okay as neither of those can really lead to kills.

To actually hit with your projectiles there are two ways. Surprise your opponent with an unusual throw or make them loose their temper(match won, lol). To make them loose their temper is all about sending out an aura that you have no problems camping all day, no matter how boring the match will become or if it will make the tournament stall. If they start complaining, you have won, take it as a sign that what you are doing works pretty well.

Doing surprising throws are all about timing. Do them out of rhythm, create a throwing pattern and break it just as your opponent gets used to it. The flexibility in your projectiles allows this a lot.

Standing still is btw no problem when you are camping, if you are out of harms way and got a bomb in your hand ready to be tossed you can chill out for a while if you want.

Lastly. Don't hunt for kills greedily, you will get into trouble. Instead you should search for the kill opportunities that are safe, I like setting up kills with bombs in different fashions. This means that every try for a kill should be nonpunishable, if that means that the opponent gets to 200% so be it, as long as you don't die.

Some notes vs when camping vs peach.
- Throw the rang to disrupt turnip pulls whenever you both are at a long distance
- Peach's jump is slow, the top platform is safe if she isn't there.
- Try to learn when her float ends if she is float stalling, so you can use your projectiles to force an airdodge, then punish the airdodge lag.
- Bomb > dair
- Remember you can catch turnips, Link got good catch range and throws them better than peach
- Uair is a okay killer vs peach if your dair don't seem to be able to connect
- Pick PS or FD, never DL64, you want the low ceiling, but still a big stage

Last piece of advice:
Always be a happy camper. A salty camper is such an unpleasant person to be with.

 

[Bravo_10]

Thanks for the pointers! I think one of my biggest problems is not playing reactively. It's something I've talked to s0ft about a little bit, and setting myself up in a position where I can react to my opponent's options instead of trying to read where they're going to be with my moves ought to help me a bit. It's a difficult mindset to transition to though, in large part because stringing together a few big reads feels really powerful. When it doesn't work of course, I'm shafted.

And are you so sure about FD being good versus Peach? I feel like there are fewer options to escape turnip throws and to get myself out of a corner. Very often I'll be going even with Peach, when suddenly her superior edge game takes the stock really quick and I'm in the hole. It's similar to what Fox does with his shine, except for me maybe feeling a little less bad about it because Fox can die so easily.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

On FD you can shut down a peach by throwing your stuff pretty often and get in control of more terrain, chunk by chunk. Peach will need to give up terrain every time she wants to pull a turnip. Link is more flexible cause he can throw a rang to guard a pull. That's where your advantage is.

Links recovery is great in its versatility, so learn it better if you are getting gimped a lot.

 

[Thor]

The goal of camping is avoiding damage, not inflict it.

This may just mean that I've been doing everything wrong... I need to play with this in mind and see what changes, since I thought camping was for scratch damage [see Fox Puff as an example], instead of just being out of harm's way.

Thanks for the pointers! I think one of my biggest problems is not playing reactively. It's something I've talked to s0ft about a little bit, and setting myself up in a position where I can react to my opponent's options instead of trying to read where they're going to be with my moves ought to help me a bit. It's a difficult mindset to transition to though, in large part because stringing together a few big reads feels really powerful. When it doesn't work of course, I'm shafted.

And are you so sure about FD being good versus Peach? I feel like there are fewer options to escape turnip throws and to get myself out of a corner. Very often I'll be going even with Peach, when suddenly her superior edge game takes the stock really quick and I'm in the hole. It's similar to what Fox does with his shine, except for me maybe feeling a little less bad about it because Fox can die so easily.

Saving your double jump vs Peach is huuuuuge [and I need to do it and rarely do... habits to fix of my own] because you can just nair through a non-stitch and then dj up+b [or double jump over the turnip], but if you use double jump and get hit by a turnip it's lights out unless you have a bomb ready to explode.

 

[Fortress]

how do you effectively control space with your projectiles against other characters? I'd really like to know.

First thing's first, controlling space with your projectiles is only as effective as your ability to punish your opponent's reactions to your zoning.

One thing I'd like to point out as a player who likes long-ranged characters (Link, Ryu in SF), zoning doesn't mean that you forgo damage at all. As a matter-of-fact, when you zone properly, you're looking to punish every reaction to your zoning. When you zone, you break down the game into a short list of reactions, from which you only need to break down the most effective ways the opponent could execute on one of those options.

One simplified way to break down zoning is to break down just what it is the projectile is used for. When you field a projectile, you're fishing for a reaction from your opponent, and hopefully one that you can punish. A hit is great, but, failing that, you've at least quantified what your opponent can do. With a bomb flying at them, the opponent can do one of these things:

1) Block it
2) Dodge it
3) Counter it
4) Take the hit

Breaking down their possible reactions will help you narrow down what you're looking for.

If they block, you can gain some ground and push them closer and closer to the corner, where they're going to have to open themselves up through more risks to get out. With how hard Link has it, he wants the opponent making those risky plays as much as they can. "Do they open themselves up for a grab by turtling up often against my projectiles? Grabs beat blocking!" "Can I lock them down with a bomb and pressure on their block with even more jabs and f-Airs until they back up or open up and get poked?"

If they dodge, you can adjust your own positioning and/or go for the anti-air option. "What character am I fighting? What are their movement options that allow them to get around this projectile? Can they reposition faster and more effectively than me? Can I punish the movement option that they choose?" Remember; when the opponent is in the air, the amount of actions that they can perform are reduced dramatically. You don't need to worry about being grabbed in the air, or somebody blocking you in the air, so use this to narrow down what you can do.

The opponent can opt to take option three and counter the projectile with an attack of their own. "Does this attack threaten my position, or can I use this time to inch forward on them and push them back? Can I punish the option they choose? Are they able to win a 'fireball' war with me here (can they out-spam me)?

And, of course, the opponent can also get hit, which is generally not a choice they make.

Anyway, don't think of zoning as just slinging bombs/fireballs from the other side of the stage. Every time you throw a bomb, you need to counter one of those four things that the opponent chooses to do, and capitalize on the situation you set up. When you zone, you are playing a game of rock-paper-scissors with the opponent. You set up the scenario, and they play their hand, and it's on you to pick the correct way to punish what they do. Don't just blindly throw things until they stick. Study how they react to your pressure.

And, remember: when you throw a bomb, your opponent has to choose one of those four basic reactions. Break the game down fundamentally like that, and zoning will become much easier for you.

EDIT: The way I learned this was long into my Smash 'career', and through the Street Fighter series, actually. When it was explained that every fighting game is based around the scenario "what do I do when Ryu throws a fireball at me", the game became much simpler (SF, and Smash). Think of Link as your Ryu; you've got a bomb. When you throw that thing, all that you need to think of is "What could Fox/Falco/Sheik/Peach/Marth/etc. do if I threw a bomb at them right now?" Things get a lot clearer when you play with that mindset.

I love bombs.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Here are a few things match-up specific I could keep in mind against peach. Your projectile start-up time can be used in tandem with your aerial movement. Peach turnip pluck is grounded and stationary. Not to mention her air mobility to the side is pretty slow. Therefore, I believe your goal is not to camp peach trying to build up damage or avoid taking damage. Your goal is to hit peach and get the best punish you can out of it and continually keep her in a bad spot. Projectiles assist you in being able to land your harder hitting moves which buildup percentage more quickly and solidify a strong advantage more readily.

Arrows are pointless in general. Not enough mobility after the arrow hit somethings. Boomerang is similar. You really gain no advantage for hitting with a boomerang unless you get the strong hit. Bombs are the best go to option.

Staying near peach threatens her and deters turnip pulling in neutral. Otherwise, if she rushed forward or grabbed a turnip in place you could punish this swiftly due to turnip pulls being slow. Thus, if she grabs a turnip she retreats away from you. (Or after you got knocked away, but you cannot do anything if not in neutral really).

I am not positive the best way to deal with turnips depending upon the spacing. Grabbing a turnip I believe is bad overall. A recently thrown turnip will have a peach behind it and trying to grab a turnip wastes valuable time and puts you up in the air and distracts you from peach's movement after the turnip throw. So, I believe its best to dash forward slightly shield it and wavedash back slightly (having it hit shields causes it to bounce up and wall momentarily. Thus, you lose no ground for her having used the turnip.

If you are super far away, then grabbing a bomb is your best method of trying to close the spacing. Using a combination of say avoiding the turnip or shielding it wavedash back to slowly press forward. Throwing a bomb will cause Peach to deal with the bomb in some manner which I believe Fortress covered well enough.

Anyway, this is a complex topic that has many branches and I do not want to bother trying to cover every conceivable option. My goal was to give more concrete examples of several situations general traits you can use to your advantage to make good decision making.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Link's aerial mobility is freaking awesome for this matchup because you can throw a boomerang and pull a bomb while moving. In other words, you technically have more resources than Peach does in the camping department.

Another huge thing that nobody mentioned as far as I saw: your character's Hylian shield blocks turnips. You technically can pull a bomb and time it so that your Hylian shield blocks the turnip at the end of the bomb pull. This gains you a tempo, which means more frames to overpower Peach.

Your moves are more disjointed than Peach's. Really useful because retreating shffl'd fair will make Peach think twice about dash attacking into you (as if she wasn't already worried enough about getting shield grabbed and down-throw combo'd or hit by up-b out of shield). U-tilt can beat her float cancelled approaches. Up-smash can straight up destroy her at certain float heights as well. Bair and nair can be used to catch her floating at mid heights. And if you ever get under her fully at that height, SH uair is extremely good.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

nitpick: bombs remove hylian shield

 

[jay-tee]

I'm pretty sure your Hylian Shield is still active at the end of the standing bomb-pull animation, is really weird and is kinda hard timing but I can see it being used in the mu. Check 20XX's hitbox option to see it closely.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, I need for this to be checked in 20XX since I don't have it. If nobody can, I will test it with my brother later tonight on a regular Melee copy.

 

[Team Plasma N]

In terms of the turnips, I personally find catching the turnips a bit useful as it allows you to use it against her a bit like you would a bomb. Of course, this is assuming you're not holding a bomb in hand already, but still using the opponent's item against them just gives you another resource to use.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah at some ranges it's very easy and good to catch turnips. It's super risky though if she throws it and then floats immediately behind it.

 

[Thor]

This thread should be stickied. There's 2 or 3 posts in here that are pure gold for any Link main to read. It's a fundamental aspect of the character that I did subconsciously for quite some time, and people actually putting words to... screen... makes me realize I was overlooking things and have more to look into.

Hard to play with all this in mind [especially since as of now I can rarely get to smashfests] but it's incredible food for thought and I think something every Link main would benefit from reading. Hence my request for the sticky.

 

[Bravo_10]

This thread should be stickied. There's 2 or 3 posts in here that are pure gold for any Link main to read. It's a fundamental aspect of the character that I did subconsciously for quite some time, and people actually putting words to... screen... makes me realize I was overlooking things and have more to look into.

Hard to play with all this in mind [especially since as of now I can rarely get to smashfests] but it's incredible food for thought and I think something every Link main would benefit from reading. Hence my request for the sticky.

Agreed. I'm really happy with how this thread turned out. Thanks for all the help, everybody! I improved substantially at my last regional in large part due to these comments. Even managed to take top 8 in teams, barely missing out on top 6.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If its really helpful it should go into the collab guide IMO