how easy is "too" easy?

[chaosscizzors]

a complaint i hear a lot against PM is that many players feel that there are several characters that perform too well compared to how easy they are to learn and use effectively. now i certainly don't think that every character needs a spacie level tech ceiling but i think this could be an interesting point to discuss. characters that people often deem exceptionally easy to perform well with are mario, link, ganondorf and probably several others i can't think of right now.

do you think that all characters should have a minimum tech skill requirement to be able to compete at top level play? if yes then what is a good base line for this minimum tech skill requirement? how would you tweak various characters to meet this requirement and why?

ftr i'm not advocating any sort of change to the game. i'd just like to get an interesting discussion started.

 

[MLGF]

TBF, only like 2 characters in Melee were really that hard.

Jigglypuff is really low on tech skill and others like Marth and Falcon, while really hard to master, aren't any more technically demanding then Ike or Mewtwo... or really anyone in PM. And we still have technical characters, Lucas and Wolf really fit that ideal Fox/Falco created.

Honestly, the characters who have a low tech ceiling and are more space/stage control orientated have enough problems. Tech skill is super important, but sometimes thinking and planning can be fun to watch too.

And if every character were just a spacy, it'd be boring.

 

[chaosscizzors]

yeah maybe technical was the wrong word for this but i think you get my point anyway. the argument is against characters that you don't need much practice, if any, to perform well with.

 

[Saito]

yeah maybe technical was the wrong word for this but i think you get my point anyway. the argument is against characters that you don't need much practice, if any, to perform well with.

While that is a legitimate concern, that's the cost of different type of characters. It's fine for different characters to have different learning curves.

At tournament level play which I believe that this game is balanced around, all of the ease to use doesn't make them extremely efficient as compared to the player who knows how to use them well.

 

[Vashimus]

How difficult do we need to make Smash Bros? If they made every character difficult to use or needed crazy ultra tech skill wave glide shine toss bullsh*t, I would not be playing this game.

 

[Bazkip]

mario, link, ganondorf

One of these is not like the other.

Spoiler

Obviously Mario, he's not a Legend of Zelda character.

But seriously, what scrubs are people playing that they think Ganon is easy to win with?

 

[9bit]

Ganon is a serious beast at low-to-mid-level play. Which is what a lot of people play.

As for the topic, I agree with @ Vashimus

 

[Y-L]

I personally think Marth is one of the easiest characters to play at a competent level. Most of his attacks have good range, are forgiving in terms of speed/end lag, has excellent grab options/follow ups, and f smash.

 

[Yurya]

IMO every character should be relatively balanced around two things: mobility and moves. When a character strays from that you get ones that seem to easy or hard.

i.e. Squirtle has alot of movement options but aside from a few notable exceptions his moves lack range. Zelda on the other hand is very pedestrian around the stage but has some pretty effective attacks. While it takes skill to play both and one still needs to learn each specifically, I would say that Squirtle is harder while Zelda is aggravating to play against because she doesn't need to do much to get something. If she needed and had more mobility options what hits she does get would be accepted as being outplayed.

 

[Fortress]

'Easy' in PM shouldn't translate to be the same thing as 'needlessly complicated and annoyingly-difficult to perform' ala Melee.

Seriously. It should piss you people off when you hear people say things like "X game is better than Y game because Z tech was so much harder to do and now there's no skill gap". 'Too easy' is Azumi's jab combo from N64's 'Deadly Arts', 'easier to work with' is what PM does with things like Mario's recovery options through up-B.

Making certain options much more accessible to players doesn't 'close the skill gap' or any other half-baked bull**** like it. The A-Tier players are going to get just as much out of options being made easier than some nobody reading this post is. Making options easier to perform more consistently won't bring players like you, like me, like your friends any closer to being at Armada's level; it's how players are going to use the tools and have the ability to tell when they're most effective.

 

[Terotrous]

'Seriously. It should piss you people off when you hear people say things like "X game is better than Y game because Z tech was so much harder to do and now there's no skill gap"

Wait wait wait. Where were you in my thread about the buffer? Because it seems like a lot of people feel the removal of the buffer (which makes techs harder to do) makes PM a better game.

 

[Fortress]

Wait wait wait. Where were you in my thread about the buffer? Because it seems like a lot of people feel the removal of the buffer (which makes techs harder to do) makes PM a better game.

I'm in and around threads and communities where I get to hear nuggets like "PM is such a worse game because Mario's recovery is too easy now and makes everybody who plays him instantly a pro Mario", or some other similar ****.

 

[Terotrous]

Sure, I totally agree that that's stupid, but that was pretty much the exact same reason people were against the buffer. "Suddenly everyone is pro-WDer, stupid game".

 

[Paradoxium]

Sure, I totally agree that that's stupid, but that was pretty much the exact same reason people were against the buffer. "Suddenly everyone is pro-WDer, stupid game".

Or we are against the buffer because we feel that the skill floor is fine where it is now, and because we feel that the technical aspect adds another layer of depth. And because technical errors can be capitalized just as hard as mental errors. Or because techniques limited by their technical difficulties would be too easy to perform. Or because we know the game is balanced around not having buffer.

 

[Terotrous]

Or we are against the buffer because we feel that the skill floor is fine where it is now

A big part of your argument was also that "everyone else also feels this way", which seems to be untrue as per this thread (and also the various other threads on the issue linked by other posters, where there's always some pro-buffer people).

I think Fortress really sums up the key point well - closing the execution gap isn't seriously going to dethrone the top players (because they also have top tier awareness, spacing, and matchup knowledge), and players who aren't quite at the top would also benefit from it.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Can this not be in this thread too?

 

[Terotrous]

Can this not be in this thread too?

It seems pretty relevant to the thread at hand. Are you just upset that suddenly there are more people expressing the opposite opinion?

 

[Mansta]

I think the fact that so many characters have good recoveries and can't be shine gimped in 2 seconds makes some Melee players mad.

It seems pretty relevant to the thread at hand. Are you just upset that suddenly there are more people expressing the opposite opinion?

Oh god no please don't start that again.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I really don't think Ganondorf is an easy character, per se. He's not very complex in terms of tech skill, certainly, nor is he complex in terms of general strategy. What makes him hard is his speed, his weight and his size. He gets juggled incredibly easily and is a massive bulls-eye for projectiles with no easy way of dealing with them. One doesn't have to be complex to win with Ganon, but I think it takes a decent amount of skill in terms of learning your opponent very quickly and being able to punish with the greatest efficiency.


Perhaps a better distinction is the concept of cheap characters vs balanced characters. Ones that have extremely powerful and extremely safe options and are harder to counter. For the most part, I think most of the PM cast are fairly well balanced. The amount of intellect/tech skill that makes a character good is an arbitrary idea, seeing as each character is quite different in how they interact with others and how they play in general. Tech requirements are unique to each character, and intelligence required is definitely a matter of opinion.

 

[Fortress]

Playing a solid Ganondorf is more about having very solid fundamentals over anything else. He's like characters like Sheik in that you don't need a lot of technical prowess to get the most out of him, but will instead rely on a solid foundation to overcome his lack of technical options and net quick kills.

I missed it if anybody said "PM is too easy because Ganondorf is too easy" or something, but those people should keep in mind that Sheik in Melee, and PM, is incredibly easy to play.