How does quantity affect the tier list?

[TheBuzzSaw]

This will probably require input from experts in other fighting games. My question is this: do more characters in the game cause tiers to be more or less explicit? I have pondered on this for a long time, and I really see it going two ways.

The way I envision it is that the more characters there are in a game, the less likely there is to be a "best" character since there are more counters and whatnot. Melee had a rather explicit tier list, but I believe that insufficient testing of the lower tier characters led to that problem. Even then, there are several characters that win tournaments (usually Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik), so the large number of characters led to some variety.

With Brawl, there are going to be even more characters, and it sounds like they will all be better built than Melee's multiple clones. Do you think there will still be only four characters winning tournaments? Or will the number grow as powerful counterattacks are discovered?

 

[Jihnsius]

When compared to other game series, you can kind of derive how tier lists work out over time based on the style change between releases.

For example: the Tekken series has remained almost the same concept since it's first release. Now, almost 8 releases later, the tier list is finally becoming near perfectly balanced. If you take a look at Capcom releases, on the other hand, you'll see that they constantly change styles of gameplay between releases, which tends to lead for an extremely unbalanced tier list. Take, for example, Marvel vs. Capcom 2. It had a fairly revolutionary design, but since it was first of it's kind (and not to mention had a huge roster,) the tiers are horribly misaligned.

My theory is that if Brawl uses a similar physics engine to Melee's and they put considerable testing into what's previously known about the game, they can come out with a more balanced tier-list. On the other hand, if Brawl has a completely different feel and a new engine, there'll be more room for discoveries and a similar margin of tiers.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

It all comes down to each individual character. A game with 100 characters can be very well balanced, it's just harder to do than it'd be in a game with 10. The higher the quantity of characters only increases the developers chances of failing in the design of some characters.

Given how much focus Sakurai claims to be putting into character balance, perhaps aware of what happened to Pikachu, Ness, and Kirby in the transition from 64, I think this game will be more balanced than Melee regardless of the number on characters, if only because this time the developers have that as a priority.

If the game turns out to have a very distinct top tier like melee does, or a character like Fox who, while certainly not unbeatable, has advantages over almost all other characters and has a ridiculous amount of stages that benefit him, I will be disappointed. I would much rather it be like 3S. You got your top tier, with Yung, Chun Li, etc. But all of those can be ***** by the lower tier characters, since the reasons for their being so powerful don't apply universally in any given matchup.

 

[Dynamism]

When they actually say that they'll focus on balance, I'd expect it to seem like they focused on balance. They re-made all of the existing characters with with the new traits applied, whether it be multi-use standard attacks or crawling etc...it may be difficult. I beleive that with quantity, it could almost be more balanced because (like you said) there are more match-ups to consider as good or bad for many varied characters.
The top-tier in melee didn't have much more in their favor then the mid-tier, they just had more match-ups in their favor. More characters = more match-ups. This can go any way for any character.

 

[Jihnsius]

You also need to take into consideration the many levels of metagame. With thousands of people actively playing Melee the metagame can develop quite quickly. Remember when Fox wasn't high tier at all? The balance will only be on the level that they see, which will probably be overridden a couple years (if not less than a year) after the game is released. Not to mention the new techniques being brought in, which overrules a lot of the previous metagame from Melee and 64 they could have studied. Unless they have an extremely well studied competitive gaming developer, they probably won't get close to balance anywhere above the basic metagame.

 

[OddCrow]

interesting thought. I do agree tho that more characters=more matchups , I think that will mean a wider selection of good characters. (right now it's about, say 5/25, for brawl I predict about 13/40)

another question I had was will Pokemon trainer have his own tier spot, or will Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard each have their own. I would just say, "their own" but it seems like switching between them is more of a necessity than it is with Shiek and zelda. any thoughts?

 

[kaid]

Trainer will probable get a tier spot, but each pokemon would have it's own list of matchups, IMO.

 

[Jackal478]

Quantity doesnt really effect the Quality unless its simmilar to the cloning in Melee. :/

 

[Dynamism]

Jihnsius - WiFi updates, they have the net if something gets out of hand. Really they can eventually work out all the bugs, even 4 years in. I'm sure it's going to be VERY balanced and it probably won't be needed. I'm sure we'll still have a Kirby and THIS TIME...they can fix him.

PT is gonna be a weird one, maybe one place on the tier will be fine because each char in his selection is around even. Maybe ones lower or higher but that's going to be worked out.

For the most part, I think a tier list will be irrelevant. Balance, variety, just the play style of smash itself can balance a game. So far so good in the series. meh

 

[skullkidd]

Um, I don't really know.
But, if they have a ridiculous amount of players, the balance won't be as equal because they spent their time making so many.
Still, I'm expecting 40, with acceptable balance.

 

[Jihnsius]

WiFi updates

Yeah, they may do that, but then again they might not. Maybe up to 6 months after release, but after that I'm sure a lot of people will start to get upset.

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

Not really. What will affect the tier list is whether or not the game uses Havok, whether wavedashing and other glitches are still intact, and if there are any REALLY broken characters.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Remember Fox was nerfed in the PAL version? And Wii updates will keep everything in check, so I highly doubt there will be a top four God-like characters.

 

[WarxePB]

Though Brawl's probably going to be more balanced than Melee, there'll still be a tier list - it's impossible to completely balance a fighting game, so there'll be characters who are naturally better than others.
I suspect that some of the higher-tier characters in Melee will be toned down a bit, but not to the extreme that Kirby and Ness were. Although, Meta Knight and Pit both look like high-tier characters...

 

[Digital Angel]

Wait so they can do character updates on Wi-Fi?? I didn't know they could change the game's content like that.
That's awesome but I guess it would suck if one of your favorite characters got nerfed.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Wait so they can do character updates on Wi-Fi?? I didn't know they could change the game's content like that.
That's awesome but I guess it would suck if one of your favorite characters got nerfed.

They do it in like all games.

Gears of War, Call of Duty 3, Pokemon Battle Revolution, etc..