How does one approach a swordman?

[Clown]

First post on Smashboards! (WOO!)

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, if a mod could move this to the correct one (if this is the wrong place) I'd be grateful.

Let the nubbery begin!

1. How does one not get rekt by a Roy/Marth?
2. How can I practise these things?
3. I know this is the Falco section, but what can I do as Wolf too in this matchup?
4. Tips for this matchup in melee would also be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for all advise.

 

[Lizalfos]

Welcome!

Generally, you just need to respect Marth's range. Try to keep a spacing so that you can in one short hop (with dash momentum) shffl nair shine > multishine/shinegrab/waveshine/whatever. Make sure you hit the bottom half of his shield with nair/dair or you will get shine grabbed. There is alot more complexity but this spacing is what allows Falco convert into shield pressure and combo starting, and you want to put Marth under pressure so he can't take stage control and set up easy edguards

Other Things:
Shoot lasers in neutral (make sure they are safely spaced)
Shoot lasers to edge guard
Grab ledge to edge guard
Mix up your tech rolls and recovery
I forgot which moves at what percent for Marth, but crouch cancel shine is really good in every matchup.
DON'T ALWAYS APPROACH Good players set up situations or get reads before they even go in to start attacking.

 

[Clown]

SNIP

Tyvm for the reply.

I posted this after ~1 hour of getting my butt handed to me on netplay by a Roy (managed to get him down to 1 stock once out of god knows how many games).

Couple of follow-ups

• are there any other options apart from shffl nair for approaches? Falco's horizontal movement on sh just feels sooo slow compared to melee and unsatisfactory
• when laser "camping", what are things to look out for on Roy's/Marth's approach that I can then take advantage of and punish? A couple of really common issues I had was him dash attacking me outta the air, him getting close crouching and then dtilting. I actually recall reacting to that and trying to dair but his dtilt hitbox not only had priority but then covered part of the main body - this just bad luck or the wrong thing to do?
• what can be cc -> shine? literally everything I tried left me out of range of the shine and instead I ended up opting to dtilt (e.g. 3rd hit of Roy's side b, Roy's dair)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Shoot a lot of lasers. Do not let them breath
Learn marth/roy grab/dtilt range and when DD'ing be aware of that range. You can bait them while DD'ing(and lasering) in that range.
Those are their key moves in neutral.
Make them land on stage with their up b. Lots of lag on it.

If they dash atk, cc grab them. cc shine is situation, especially for falco, his shine is the smallest horizontally.
Laser to a grab is good.
Run up shine or sh shine is also good.

Watch axe play falco in pm for more info.

 

[Clown]

SNIP

Ty for the reply.

Just a couple of questions - when dd'ing/lasering in neutral, what am I trying to bait? Is there something optimal (say something with a lot of cooldown) I should be trying to tempt them into and others I should avoid? If so, what would be the best way to avoid them?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You wanna bait dtilts, grabs, counters, aerails and any other atk they do. Basically their whole moveset. Like i said tho, dtilt and grab are all they are really gonna in neutral. They will throw in some dash atks here and there as well. Dtilt is the hardest move to punish that they have. Good marths can be a little harder to punish, because they will go for double aerials. Other moves can be punished without a high amount of precision, the amount you need depends on the move they use and where you are. Oh and roy's side b can be tricky.

Lasers can bait jumps, shields etc

 

[StevenStone]

I have a friend who mains Marth. Most of my approaches come from baiting jumps or forcing shield with lasers. Pretty much in my experience lasers are you best friend.

 

[Rpggames77]

From my experience against marths is that they don't have the best air game, every time I face a marth or am marth I cant find too many good air combos besides the ken combo.