How does competitive smash work?

[DanDiCa]

First of all I need help, I have never tried competitive smash before but so far I am loving smash 4 and actually I been doing ok in my For Glory matches, even though I know that doesn't mean anything since most of the people who plays For Glory are just randoms like me.

this comes to my main question how is the competitive in this game? I know that in every fighter there are going to be better characters than others but... are low tiers able to take down top tiers if used properly?

Right now I main Marth and Pit are those 2 good enough to earn wins vs good players or should I consider on maining one of the top tier (diddy sheik rosalina)?

comming from a different community (Naruto Storm Series) [Worst community ever for real...] they used a term called "Legit" is something like that also in smash? apparently the players from the Naruto community hated and banned every single "OP" thing, that also happens in smash? or you're free to use whatever you want without players getting complains?

and my last question is... if neither Marth and Pit are reliable on competitive scene which is the best top tier character to rush with? since I'm not patient enough to drop projectiles and wait to counter the move...

 

[Jellyfish4102]

First of all you don't have to worry about bans. Only one character has ever been banned in Smash's history and that didn't stick. No specific move has ever been banned either just abusive strategies like planking.

Second, there is no tier list for Smash 4. Different people will tell you different things about who is good. No one in this stage of the meta is competitively unviable. Just play who you're best with and who you enjoy the most.

As for rush down characters, I think the best are .

 

[CURRY]

It's been months since the game has come out, but I'm just going to use the same excuse:
The meta hasn't developed enough yet.
We really don't know what's going to happen. Diddy, Sheik, and Rosalina are among the more powerful characters right now, but anything can happen, ESPECIALLY because this game got a few patches, and might get a few more in the future.
A predecent here, Jiggs was actually placed 17th on the first Melee tier list... which is extremely low compared to her placement as #5 on a more current one.
So, just go with what character "clicks" with you right now, because you yourself will be advancing the metagame of your own character. It's also not really too fun to start out with a character that you don't like playing with. Of course, you don't have to stick to Marth and Pit if you don't want to. Try out the Random character selection for a while, and if there's a character that you really like, then just go with it.

EDIT:
As for banned things... I'm pretty short on time right now, and I'm going to bed. So, here's an excellent ctrl+v from D1 on a YouTube video explaining why stages (and items) are banned in most competitive Smash tournaments.

Okay so imagine the Megaman stage with the Yellow Devil. With 1mil dollars on the line, you'd gladly play on that stage and accept the fact that a random ridiculous hazard showed up to knock you off stage and allow your opponent to win...without him having to even go through the effort of outsmarting you to get into an advantageous position...allowing him to possibly force a 50/50 mixup...guessing right and doing a combo that forces you off stage...then leading to an instance situation where he has to edgeguard you and if he messes up you get a chance to live and fight again.
All that is out the window when stupid stage hazards show up and ruin the real fun of the game. Actually using your wit and tech skill to outsmart your opponent and get one over him. Stages that aren't fashioned similar to Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Dreamland, Fountain of Dreams, and even Pokemon Stadium aren't like that. They usually are packaged with hazards that will benefit a few characters while making a matchup completely unwinnable for another. Certain characters will have the ability to fly over certain stage hazards only leaving characters that don't have that luxury to suffer in pain. If you were to actually spend tons of money, invest tons of time into competitive smash you'd know what I mean. Stop listening to random scrubs spewing out silly memes every now and then and listen to people who actually are trying to make sense with you about our competitive scene. I swear people are just scared of accepting the fact that smash can be played competitively and only want to be able to play on wonky stages with silly items being thrown left and right and call it a day. If that's how you play fine, but we don't call you a filthy casual for it. We just leave you alone and let you rock. Let us play the way we want to play, and you can do the same without worry.
This video is satire, but sometimes I swear youtubers take things too seriously.​

 

[Raijinken]

Tiers are prone to being shaken up as people learn, so just play who you like most.

Many stages are banned (though which ones exactly depends on the area, tournament operator, and how liberal or conservative they are in Smash terms). More conservative rulesets will almost invariably run a small set of "Flat + Plat" stages, namely Smashville, Town&City, Final Destination, and Battlefield (and often plus one more, like Lylat Cruise or Kongo Jungle 64). The further from that you get, the more divided the community becomes on what constitutes a "fair" stage, what constitutes a "neutral" stage (if such a thing exists), what, if any, hazards are "fair", all the way down to what comprises an actual test of "skill" (i.e. can certain hazards be played to skillfully, such as the waterfall in Skyloft, or the speedboat in Wuhu, etc). No characters are banned (that's a highly divisive thing and something no one wants to happen). Equipment is generally disallowed because it is highly random and includes some very dubious bonus effects. Items are generally kept off, though there are groups looking to come up with a standardized item set.

Custom Moves are where it varies largely by area. Many players are very Anti-Custom, (note that the following is from my pro-custom slant and is biased) and don't feel that it's appropriate to have to learn eight additional options (plus all combinations of those options) for each of the 51 playable characters (if you count Miis, which some places do and some don't), or that the customs are inherently unbalanced due to some negligence or oversight on the end of Nandai and Sakurai just wanting to throw 'em in "for funsies". They also take a long time to unlock, which can make it hard to practice with and against them in one's own training setting.

However, there is also a very strong following for allowing customs, typically (again, my biased reasoning) because they only very rarely change a character significantly (four moves at most, typically specialized, when compared to all character's standard A-button attacks, which are far more numerous and central to gameplay, exceptions being Palutena and Miis), can be copied readily from any single 3DS version that already got them all (see the Standard Custom Moveset Project page for a logistics solution that I personally support and have implemented on my system), and add extra levels of depth, personal flavor, and balance to the game.

Good rushdown characters currently include, but are in no way limited to, Diddy, Shiek, Greninja, Captain Falcon, and others. Regardless of what some may say elsewhere, the game does favor an aggressive (if calculated) playstyle, though defensive characters are viable in their own right.

 

[Morbi]

I am going to assert an unpopular opinion; it is probably not a relevant sentiment as of current, but it will become more and more accurate as our meta-game evolves. If you are serious about winning against good players, you should certainly consider a top-tier character. I am not saying that you should main the top character, but you should consider a main out of the "viable" candidates. Obviously, as of current, it is not necessary and we are "sleeping" on about half the roster. The game has not even been out for a month, has it? I would not worry about it, yet. But if you look at evolved meta-games like Melee or Brawl, you would be quite insane to go up against a top 5 character with someone like Kirby (Melee) or Ganon (Brawl). It is just not going to work unless you are playing against someone incompetent. I am all for the "play who you want to play and try your hardest, that will net you the win." But I am not delusional, sometimes you have to compromise. Again, this is not necessary as of current, a year or two down the line... it might be.

 

[dragontamer]

First of all I need help, I have never tried competitive smash before but so far I am loving smash 4 and actually I been doing ok in my For Glory matches, even though I know that doesn't mean anything since most of the people who plays For Glory are just randoms like me.

this comes to my main question how is the competitive in this game? I know that in every fighter there are going to be better characters than others but... are low tiers able to take down top tiers if used properly?

Tiers are a joke right now. No game has a tier list within a month. Never has, never will. Advanced tech will be discovered and months from now we will be laughing up a storm about how wrong we were. Anyone who disagrees with me, keep in mind Olimar's place in Brawl's early tier lists. He was considered C tier for months.

All a Tier List is the community's opinion on which characters are better than another. Obviously, as the community as a whole gets better, tier lists get more accurate over time. As such, the more important to tier lists are their construction. Personally, I generally favor tier lists that have tournament statistics backing them up.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), it is far too early to be discussing anything beyond the very best characters and the very worst characters. There simply haven't been enough tournaments to construct a tier list... especially in a game with as wide and diverse of a cast as this one.

Instead, focus your skills on mastering the basics. Can you punish every defensive option from your opponent? Can you time your attacks to beat rolls? Can you control spacing to know where your opponent will be before and after his roll? Can you bait out air-dodges and punish them on the recovery frames? Can you shield punish safely without getting counter-grabbed ? Do you know the time to use every attack? In particular, tilts tend to be ignored by beginner players. Can you space tilts well to apply good and safe footsies??

Do you understand the movement / footsies game? Etc. etc.

These are the basics of the game. Only after mastery of the basics should you consider "tiers". And by the time you've mastered the basics... you'll be a good enough player to pick out the good characters on your own.

 

[Darklink401]

My two cents:

Use Marth and Pit if you wish, they're both decent characters, and if you play well you should be fine even against 'top tiers' (as I refer to them now, for being some of the seemingly stronger characters in the game, such as Yoshi, Sheik, Diddy, etc)

Go to a lot of tournaments if possible, and practice in training mode to get better with your mains, then eventually you'll get super good ;D

 

[DanDiCa]

First of all let me thank you all for your comments, I really appreciate them you guys are the best now I will reply you individually

As for rush down characters, I think the best are .

I might be taking Greninja then, it also is one of my favorite pokemon so it might be cool using him against top tier characters.

As for banned things... I'm pretty short on time right now, and I'm going to bed. So, here's an excellent ctrl+v from D1 on a YouTube video explaining why stages (and items) are banned in most competitive Smash tournaments.

I have to agree with the ban of some stages as same as items though, I mean, it would be quite awful that some spontaneous or random thing decides the thing instead of the skill of the player itself, even though mind linking a thread where I can see which stages favor some characters? or which stages fit the style of some characters?, I have been watching some "competitive" gameplay and I find it kinda curious how come they pick stages in neutral mode without using the flat one (normally used in FG)

However, there is also a very strong following for allowing customs, typically (again, my biased reasoning) because they only very rarely change a character significantly (four moves at most, typically specialized, when compared to all character's standard A-button attacks, which are far more numerous and central to gameplay, exceptions being Palutena and Miis), can be copied readily from any single 3DS version that already got them all (see the page for a logistics solution that I personally support and have implemented on my system), and add extra levels of depth, personal flavor, and balance to the game.

Thanks dude I will definitely check the thread, the customization might be helpful in the future... who knows, even though I have a question, is the 3DS version also getting a competitive scene?

I am going to assert an unpopular opinion; it is probably not a relevant sentiment as of current, but it will become more and more accurate as our meta-game evolves. If you are serious about winning against good players, you should certainly consider a top-tier character. I am not saying that you should main the top character, but you should consider a main out of the "viable" candidates. Obviously, as of current, it is not necessary and we are "sleeping" on about half the roster. The game has not even been out for a month, has it? I would not worry about it, yet. But if you look at evolved meta-games like Melee or Brawl, you would be quite insane to go up against a top 5 character with someone like Kirby (Melee) or Ganon (Brawl). It is just not going to work unless you are playing against someone incompetent. I am all for the "play who you want to play and try your hardest, that will net you the win." But I am not delusional, sometimes you have to compromise. Again, this is not necessary as of current, a year or two down the line... it might be.

I get your point, isn't to presume or anything but I used to be top player in the other community I mentioned and for the experience on that game I realized that sometimes you have to pull at least 1 succesful top tier to be able to keep up against others, yes it's true that the metagame can be developed finding new things for the ones what seem to be "low" tier but eventually the ones what shown to be at the top will also get some develop at the point the only way to take down one of those will be by doing Mirrors or using another character from the Top, thanks again for commenting I really found it helpful.

Instead, focus your skills on mastering the basics. Can you punish every defensive option from your opponent? Can you time your attacks to beat rolls? Can you control spacing to know where your opponent will be before and after his roll? Can you bait out air-dodges and punish them on the recovery frames? Can you shield punish safely without getting counter-grabbed ? Do you know the time to use every attack? In particular, tilts tend to be ignored by beginner players. Can you space tilts well to apply good and safe footsies??

Do you understand the movement / footsies game? Etc. etc.

These are the basics of the game. Only after mastery of the basics should you consider "tiers". And by the time you've mastered the basics... you'll be a good enough player to pick out the good characters on your own.

pretty accurate post man even though I am quite terrible with theory so... now abusing of your charity would you mind giving me some feedback? I tried to link a couple of recordings of me playing smash, even though I am unable to do it since I need at least 10 posts to link in the forums, mind if I give you the links through private message so then you can directly tell me where do I have to improve?
I am move of a visual learner so I like to play good opponents for the fact that I tend to copy what I like and adapt it with my style, even though it seems you have pretty strong knowledge in the game so I will really appreciate it if you could give me feedback and tell me where are the things I can improve

My two cents:

Use Marth and Pit if you wish, they're both decent characters, and if you play well you should be fine even against 'top tiers' (as I refer to them now, for being some of the seemingly stronger characters in the game, such as Yoshi, Sheik, Diddy, etc)

Go to a lot of tournaments if possible, and practice in training mode to get better with your mains, then eventually you'll get super good ;D

we got a problem with the tournaments part, sure I will be assisting some in the near future, but I am a mexican living in mexico... so yeah, good thing is that I live in a frontier state so I might drive sometime of the next year to texas or any other state where it seems to have an active competitive smash community thanks for your suggestions man I really appreciate it.

and something I have to tell all of you is, anyone up for sparing matches? at the beginning I might get owned hard but I promise I adapt quite fast so maybe after 5 matches I might be able to put a decent fight, that being said, thanks to all of you for taking your time to explain me this

 

[Darklink401]

First of all let me thank you all for your comments, I really appreciate them you guys are the best now I will reply you individually

I might be taking Greninja then, it also is one of my favorite pokemon so it might be cool using him against top tier characters.


I have to agree with the ban of some stages as same as items though, I mean, it would be quite awful that some spontaneous or random thing decides the thing instead of the skill of the player itself, even though mind linking a thread where I can see which stages favor some characters? or which stages fit the style of some characters?, I have been watching some "competitive" gameplay and I find it kinda curious how come they pick stages in neutral mode without using the flat one (normally used in FG)


Thanks dude I will definitely check the thread, the customization might be helpful in the future... who knows, even though I have a question, is the 3DS version also getting a competitive scene?



I get your point, isn't to presume or anything but I used to be top player in the other community I mentioned and for the experience on that game I realized that sometimes you have to pull at least 1 succesful top tier to be able to keep up against others, yes it's true that the metagame can be developed finding new things for the ones what seem to be "low" tier but eventually the ones what shown to be at the top will also get some develop at the point the only way to take down one of those will be by doing Mirrors or using another character from the Top, thanks again for commenting I really found it helpful.



pretty accurate post man even though I am quite terrible with theory so... now abusing of your charity would you mind giving me some feedback? I tried to link a couple of recordings of me playing smash, even though I am unable to do it since I need at least 10 posts to link in the forums, mind if I give you the links through private message so then you can directly tell me where do I have to improve?
I am move of a visual learner so I like to play good opponents for the fact that I tend to copy what I like and adapt it with my style, even though it seems you have pretty strong knowledge in the game so I will really appreciate it if you could give me feedback and tell me where are the things I can improve

we got a problem with the tournaments part, sure I will be assisting some in the near future, but I am a mexican living in mexico... so yeah, good thing is that I live in a frontier state so I might drive sometime of the next year to texas or any other state where it seems to have an active competitive smash community thanks for your suggestions man I really appreciate it.

and something I have to tell all of you is, anyone up for sparing matches? at the beginning I might get owned hard but I promise I adapt quite fast so maybe after 5 matches I might be able to put a decent fight, that being said, thanks to all of you for taking your time to explain me this

Do you have Wii U or 3ds?

We can go a few rounds~

 

[Raijinken]

Thanks dude I will definitely check the thread, the customization might be helpful in the future... who knows, even though I have a question, is the 3DS version also getting a competitive scene?

and something I have to tell all of you is, anyone up for sparing matches? at the beginning I might get owned hard but I promise I adapt quite fast so maybe after 5 matches I might be able to put a decent fight, that being said, thanks to all of you for taking your time to explain me this

The 3DS scene more or less lasted while the U version wasn't out. I haven't personally seen any 3DS events since the U's release, since the U version doesn't have local lag, is easier to stream, and so on.

I'm up for some sparring on either version. PM me which one you add me on, I'll be up for matches assuming my home internet is up to snuff. If not, it'll have to wait til January, but I'll still be up for it.

 

[dragontamer]

pretty accurate post man even though I am quite terrible with theory so... now abusing of your charity would you mind giving me some feedback? I tried to link a couple of recordings of me playing smash, even though I am unable to do it since I need at least 10 posts to link in the forums, mind if I give you the links through private message so then you can directly tell me where do I have to improve?

Sure, I'm not a Pit player, but I'll probably be able to comment on your Marth stuff. Are you aware of Marth's mechanic, in particular the "tipper" ??

and something I have to tell all of you is, anyone up for sparing matches? at the beginning I might get owned hard but I promise I adapt quite fast so maybe after 5 matches I might be able to put a decent fight, that being said, thanks to all of you for taking your time to explain me this

I should note that while I've been "competitive" in games before, I'm not a regular tourny player in Smash. I know what it takes to be a competitive tourny player, and I think I'm too old for that now. :-(

But I'll try to teach you what I know anyway.

 

[CURRY]

I have to agree with the ban of some stages as same as items though, I mean, it would be quite awful that some spontaneous or random thing decides the thing instead of the skill of the player itself, even though mind linking a thread where I can see which stages favor some characters? or which stages fit the style of some characters?, I have been watching some "competitive" gameplay and I find it kinda curious how come they pick stages in neutral mode without using the flat one (normally used in FG)

Uhhhh
I'm honestly not too familiar with Smash 4, but... the "favorable" stages kinda just come, I guess.
I mean, obviously, stages like the "flat" one you described, Final Destination (The blandest, flattest stage in the history of Smash, hence, the "Fox only, Final Destination" meme/stereotype) will favor characters who REALLY don't like platforms, the most obvious guy being Little Mac, who likes staying on the ground, and has very, very limited options reaching people moving at platform to platform, because he's simply just bad at it. So yeah, Mac can just choose to remove the platforms altogether and win.
Also, a flat stage is just nice sometimes for people who don't want platforms interrupting their stuff.

Some people really excel on Battlefield just naturally. Brawl Marth, for example, with his long reach, can pressure people on platforms ABOVE him without getting into any danger. Opponents often sit in their shield and get caught by Marth, etc. etc.
Marth was severly nerfed in this game, but his sword can still reach to the side platforms on Battlefield while he stays grounded.
Battlefield is also one of the most commonly played on stages, so people just like it because of familiarity, even if their character is theoretically bad on that stage.

In Brawl, there was a huge problem with stages that you could go under, and poke through that "base" with attacks... because... Meta Knight...
he could literally go under the stage and spam uair and not get any retaliation by certain characters. Rainbow Cruise (finicky stage) and Halberd are some examples of Meta Knight doing this thing, commonly called "sharking". MK was severely nerfed in Smash 4, all for the better...

Yoshi's island is weird. The base of the stage is uneven. The edges are curved. There's a HUGE platform in the middle that will turn at certain time intervals. This made it hell for Toon, because people could go under the platforms to keep safe from his bombs that came from above, which limits one of his best options for many good matchups. The uneven floor is also hell. projeciles just don't... go the right distances, because they hit the sloped ground...

A lot of "favorable" stages is just getting used to and knowing about how the game and the stage interacts with your character and your opponent.

 

[Rajikaru]

Practice on Battlefield offline. Playing online in FG 1v1 will always be FD. Also, learn slight advantages characters have over others, and what your best moves are. Learn good combos that can't be dodged/airdodged out of for your characters. For example, at low percents, a down grab and then following your opponent up and using an uair is reliable as Marth or Lucina.

Learn match-ups between characters and which favors which. For example, a projectile-heavy character like R.O.B. will have a noticeable advantage over a medium-range rushdown character like Marth or Captain Falcon, assuming both players are around equal skills.

Oh, and learn cool tricks. Try dash-dancing as Marth, and then side-smashing out of the dash-dance. It's like learning new licks on guitar: it's hard at first, as you have to learn all the quick finger movements and how to strum properly, but once you get it down, you'll be able to do it without thinking about it, and you never know, some Li'l Mac might challenge you to a Sm4sh battle/guitar duel where the lick/trick will win you the game.

Oh, and this is the biggest thing: DON'T GET DISCOURAGED. If you lose a lot on FG, don't give up and quit, keep going, learn what you did wrong, maybe spar with some better opponents and have them tell you what you can do to improve.

 

[DanDiCa]

Practice on Battlefield offline. Playing online in FG 1v1 will always be FD. Also, learn slight advantages characters have over others, and what your best moves are. Learn good combos that can't be dodged/airdodged out of for your characters. For example, at low percents, a down grab and then following your opponent up and using an uair is reliable as Marth or Lucina.

Learn match-ups between characters and which favors which. For example, a projectile-heavy character like R.O.B. will have a noticeable advantage over a medium-range rushdown character like Marth or Captain Falcon, assuming both players are around equal skills.

Oh, and learn cool tricks. Try dash-dancing as Marth, and then side-smashing out of the dash-dance. It's like learning new licks on guitar: it's hard at first, as you have to learn all the quick finger movements and how to strum properly, but once you get it down, you'll be able to do it without thinking about it, and you never know, some Li'l Mac might challenge you to a Sm4sh battle/guitar duel where the lick/trick will win you the game.

Oh, and this is the biggest thing: DON'T GET DISCOURAGED. If you lose a lot on FG, don't give up and quit, keep going, learn what you did wrong, maybe spar with some better opponents and have them tell you what you can do to improve.

I just tried that dash thing, man it's kinda hard but I am getting used to it, thanks for the tip
trust me... it takes more than just a couple of loses to made me quit, I personally enjoy losing, it gets me pumped and proves I have alot of stuff to learn.

any thread you can link about these matchups? you got me there with that comment, I will really appreciate if you could link it so I can see which characters I should be careful with

 

[CURRY]

I think this is the fourth time I've posted these two articles in about two days.
I should probably get off the competitive discussion boards, for my own sake of productivity... I'm pretty much ctrl+ving the same things over and over again.
http://smashboards.com/threads/brickwalls-and-traps-the-keys-to-victory.183816/
http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-your-options-an-article-on-playing-smart.206225/
Brawl articles, but a lot of this knowledge is carried into Smash 4, so it's quite useful. Emblem Lord just makes great articles in general.

As for matchups, search in your individual character forums. Matchups are different for everyone.
http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-character-discussion.291/