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How Do You Punish ZSS Flip Jump on Omega Stages?

MarkT

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
22
I use Megaman, D3, and a few other lower tiered characters. I'm finding it almost impossible to punish ZSS when she uses her flip jump. If I block she bounces back with no lag. If she misses she lands with no lag. If I try to attack her while she's flipping she has higher priority than me. And if I try to run away, jump, and try to counter more horizontally she can adjust her movement away from me.

I can deal with the spam of paralyzer... but her flip is BEGGING to be punished and I just don't know how!
 

BBC7

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
667
Location
Canada, Ontario
I would try blocking it until the ZSS realizes they need a new option, an option isn't going to be used over and over if it's not working.
 

SonicZeroX

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
1,601
3DS FC
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Don't try attacking her during the flip, she is actually INVINCIBLE during it.
 

MarkT

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
22
I understand that being defensive is an option... but I want to be able to punish it. Moves like that are supposed to be situational and / or high risk + high reward. This thing seems completely safe and waiting for the other player to get bored is... well... boring.
 

Jerodak

Smash Lord
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Feb 10, 2013
Messages
1,098
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Jerodak
3DS FC
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I'm pretty sure megaman's Upsmash will beat it, also, keep in mind that she can't jump out of the flip till it's finished. Also, it's actually very laggy if you block the footstool or if she uses the kick at all. Keep in mind, that if you block and she footstools off your shield, she can't do anything at all other than drift during the ENTIRE animation afterwards until she lands. So you have to punish her while she's still in the air.

Now if you block the kick, then she's relatively safe and can act a lot quicker out of it, but if it misses and she lands then you can probably get an easy Fsmash with megaman, not full charged of course but it's probably doable. Also, she isn't invulnerable during the actual flip, if there are any I-frames, they are only during the initial frames, so you can attack her during the flip. In fact, I've seen her get Noferatu'd out of it, which gives robin the back grab as well because she turns around. I'm pretty sure a Shulk player with good reactions could probably back slash it as well.

So how you would go about punishing depends largely on which character you happen to be using and whether they landed the kick or bounced off your shield with the footstool. I'd recommend looking at the move in training mode to see how far she can move during the flip and how much lag there is during the footstool bounce or when she lands the kick and determine which of your characters moves would work best in either situation. It might also be good to get a friend to spam the move for you so you can test your punish options.
 

MarkT

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
22
Thanks for the tips. I'll test it out like you said. But just to be clear, Up-Smash doesn't seem to counter. I've only tried a couple times and so my positioning may have not been perfect, but i got hit both times I tried. Maybe uppercut? But I bet that just trades.
 

SonicZeroX

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
1,601
3DS FC
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If you're playing Megaman, maybe try block -> uair punish.
 

Dr. Tuen

Smash Lord
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Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,396
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Also, if you *look* vulnerable and shield at the last second, you could try to bait the kick. If the kick hits your shield, she will bounce off, arc nearby, and land. During all that she's in stun and can't dodge or shield, so take that chance and ruin her day.
 

Jerodak

Smash Lord
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Jerodak
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Thanks for the tips. I'll test it out like you said. But just to be clear, Up-Smash doesn't seem to counter. I've only tried a couple times and so my positioning may have not been perfect, but i got hit both times I tried. Maybe uppercut? But I bet that just trades.
Unless the kick is highly disjointed, or is klanking out your hitboxes, Upsmash should be winning, it's got an amazing disjointed hitbox on it. But I guess if that's not working, if you see her jumping from the ground and heading towards you then try running away and charging a pivot fsmash while she's in the air, then fire it at you jut before she lands. You probably won't get the full charge, but as long as you're spaced properly, she might not be able to avoid it by just moving away, and she won't be able to catch you by making the arc wider. Megaman's Fsmash is a transcendent projectile, so it's impoissible to klank it out without using special means like Link's Hylian shield or Bowser's Upsmash. The hitbox and distance are also good, even without a full charge, so it should work with good reactions and spacing. You could also just use side b instead since it should lo cover the full range and if you can force her to approach or shield then you can try to take advantage of that. If you know about where she will land, spacing a Fair or Bair just as she's entering that area could work also.
 

Los4Muros

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 22, 2012
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141
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Los4Muros
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I punish using Zair with Samus. Zamus and Samus are my mains and they both have Zair so I don't really have this problem to much. But how that helps.
 

Kohak

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
95
Location
Hawaii
I played a ton of matches on FG against a ZSS today and have been having this exact problem with Villager. This thread has been helpful. If her kick bounces off my shield would it set me up for a fair? Didn't get a chance to try it out.

Any tips for Villager vs ZSS?
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
I use this move fairly situationally because good players are always watching for it and trying to space it with B-Airs and big smashes. If I am going to potentially hit you with it, I did it right, and good for me, but you can still just block/punish attempt.
 

CupofT

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 11, 2014
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41
Location
Waterloo, Ontario
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I played a ton of matches on FG against a ZSS today and have been having this exact problem with Villager. This thread has been helpful. If her kick bounces off my shield would it set me up for a fair? Didn't get a chance to try it out.

Any tips for Villager vs ZSS?
Set up camp. Make the ZSS approach you and then punish if they do something unsafe while approaching. Keep adding small % here and there and then get KO with a edge guard or KO move.
 

extremechiton

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Jun 28, 2013
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Extremechiton
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easiest thing to do against zss flip jump is shield and do and an aerial out of shield, if your character is quick enough to do so.
 
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