How do you punish players trying to get back on stage/Ledge?

[Brim]

What the topic says. Just an example for me, when I don't chase them off-stage (which I probably shouldn't do much anyway) is try to use my Dancing Blade mostly because of its versatility and even if I miss I do have a chance for the turnaround hit.

 

[Foxy K]

DED is cool but requires lots of forethought and your opponent to have an extremely predictable recovery.

Neutral B
F Smash
F Tilt
D Tilt
Edgehog -> Ledgehop Dair, Bair, or Nair
Fair

Depends on the opponent's character but he has lots of options, the least good of which is chasing them off the stage.

 

[Brim]

DED is cool but requires lots of forethought and your opponent to have an extremely predictable recovery.

Neutral B
F Smash
F Tilt
D Tilt
Edgehog -> Ledgehop Dair, Bair, or Nair
Fair

Depends on the opponent's character but he has lots of options, the least good of which is chasing them off the stage.

Well, I guess typically when I'm DEDing it's usually because the only way they'll get back is VIA the ledge.

 

[KForce1Luca]

Neut B and Ftilt is really all you need unless they're tether characters.. or is another Roy. And one thing to add to that Edgehog -> aerial list might be NeutB but its a tad slow.

For the Link and Tink's Z tether, you'll want to either hit them before they even tether or zip to the ledge (somewhat challenging) or just Edgehog -> what Foxy K said.
For Samus, I wouldn't even bother going out there, even Jiggs has a problem edgeguarding her XD just edgehog and try to keep an eye out for if she tether cancels to UpB (which is what I LOVE to do).
For Ivy's UpB, just edgehog. Seriously. Don't even risk your time or stock on chopping that salad.
For ZSS and Olimar, you could just edgehog too but you could also get away with Fair'ing or offstage NeutB'ing (you'd be surprised how deep Roy can go with that NeutB)
For Roy, get out there and Fair him then edgehog, or just edgehog. Can't tell you how many times my NeutB or Ftilt was foiled due to his UpB reaching me.

 

[EclipseKirby]

Well, I guess typically when I'm DEDing it's usually because the only way they'll get back is VIA the ledge.

I feel like even then, just edgehogging would be best, killing them there or putting you in position to punish them if they manage to land onstage. Alternatively, edgehog -> Dair (w/invincibility) as the come close to the ledge covers this situation well, either getting the meteor, the horizontal angle for further edgeguarding or setting up for a Bair/Flare Blade kill. Other than that, Roy can better cover the ledge with angled Ftilts.

 

[Brim]

I feel like even then, just edgehogging would be best, killing them there or putting you in position to punish them if they manage to land onstage. Alternatively, edgehog -> Dair (w/invincibility) as the come close to the ledge covers this situation well, either getting the meteor, the horizontal angle for further edgeguarding or setting up for a Bair/Flare Blade kill. Other than that, Roy can better cover the ledge with angled Ftilts.

Well, I won't necessarily disagree there, but just consider how long it actually takes to get to the ledge - typically in my scenarios my opponents are almost right at the ledge by the time I'm using DED (and it's actually not half-bad for edge guarding in my experience). Also, there's the fact if you want to stop the opponents trying to go over you to get back onstage: just remember the simple fact of how fast Roy falls now, even if you stop them and hit them back off stage you have the challenge of getting back up, and I know this just might be me, but honestly very few aerials spare you enough time with Roy to recover back on stage; but, I definitely see your point.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If you grab the ledge and they recover, a waveland -> f-tilt or d-smash still hit before your invincibility is over.

 

[ZSel]

You can add Down B to your list. Especially vs Roy. That works fine vs Marth and others peeps too.. if you use it well.

 

[Foxy K]

Well, I won't necessarily disagree there, but just consider how long it actually takes to get to the ledge - typically in my scenarios my opponents are almost right at the ledge by the time I'm using DED (and it's actually not half-bad for edge guarding in my experience). Also, there's the fact if you want to stop the opponents trying to go over you to get back onstage: just remember the simple fact of how fast Roy falls now, even if you stop them and hit them back off stage you have the challenge of getting back up, and I know this just might be me, but honestly very few aerials spare you enough time with Roy to recover back on stage; but, I definitely see your point.

I don't think you're quite understanding what he was saying to do. It seems as though you're thinking you would be jumping offstage and trying to use an aerial, which will easily get you killed.

He/We are saying to simply grab the ledge so that they can't. They'll either fall to their death because they went for the ledge, or they'll manage to land on the stage. However, when they land, they'll have landing lag, which you can punish by ledgehopping and wavelanding to their position and using whatever move works best to knock them back off again. Or, if they are recovering low and going for the stage, you can ledgehop and dair while your invincibility is still active, but land on the stage yourself. The dair will either kill them or set them up for further edgeguarding, and you'll be right next to the edge, ready to go.

I don't know how opponents are so close to the ledge that you don't have time to grab it first, that seems pretty unusual for any character. All you have to do is wavedash or SHFF backwards.

 

[Brim]

I don't think you're quite understanding what he was saying to do. It seems as though you're thinking you would be jumping offstage and trying to use an aerial, which will easily get you killed.

He/We are saying to simply grab the ledge so that they can't. They'll either fall to their death because they went for the ledge, or they'll manage to land on the stage. However, when they land, they'll have landing lag, which you can punish by ledgehopping and wavelanding to their position and using whatever move works best to knock them back off again. Or, if they are recovering low and going for the stage, you can ledgehop and dair while your invincibility is still active, but land on the stage yourself. The dair will either kill them or set them up for further edgeguarding, and you'll be right next to the edge, ready to go.

I don't know how opponents are so close to the ledge that you don't have time to grab it first, that seems pretty unusual for any character. All you have to do is wavedash or SHFF backwards.

A lot of players I face use characters with EXTREME air-mobility. Grabbing the ledge has almost never solved the dilemma of how to kill them, for me. Admittedly the DED isn't always the best option against them either, so meh.
--
Also, sorry for late reply guys I had to work at 6 a.m. and my car got wrecked, it wasn't even my fault!

 

[Foxy K]

A lot of players I face use characters with EXTREME air-mobility. Grabbing the ledge has almost never solved the dilemma of how to kill them, for me. Admittedly the DED isn't always the best option against them either, so meh.
--
Also, sorry for late reply guys I had to work at 6 a.m. and my car got wrecked, it wasn't even my fault!

Hmm, ok, like what characters are we talking? Purin? Peach? Others?

And sorry about your car. Don't worry about replying in any sort of time frame, it's a forum, not a chat room. We'll survive lol.

 

[Brim]

Hmm, ok, like what characters are we talking? Purin? Peach? Others?

And sorry about your car. Don't worry about replying in any sort of time frame, it's a forum, not a chat room. We'll survive lol.

Like Charizard, Ness, just quite a few characters that can glide, or have enormous jumps.

 

[Foxy K]

The advantage of a character like Charizard recovering high is that you can stay below them. Charizard's only options out of gliding are glide attack and landing, as the glide takes away his jumps. He has to land eventually and he's very unlikely to be able to hit you with glide attack if you're directly beneath him. You, on the other hand, should have the opportunity for something like sourspot uair -> bair or something like that. In short, Charizard is going to get back to the stage, but you'll still be at an advantage.

Ness does have the tricky jump, but it's not something he can sweetspot the ledge with unless he's at a really specific distance, something you should be able to see him going for, in which case, egehog. If he just double jumps straight for the stage, his options are limited whereas yours are limitless. The same goes for his UpB, either he's going to go for the ledge or the stage, and since it goes a really specific distance, you can tell if he's going for the ledge, ledgehog. If he's going for the stage, just fsmash, flare blade, or counter him. If he's at a height/distance where he could go either way, edgehog to remove that option, then punish him landing on the stage.

Other characters like Pit, though, or, I don't know, Meta Knight, I don't have as much experience against. Or Lucas. Honestly they'd all probably give you more trouble than Zard or Ness, but it really boils down to considering their options (of which they usually have few during recovery) and covering as many of their options as possible simultaneously, which usually means edgehog and punish stage land. But if they recover high, you're still below them (good) and grounded (good). A good thing to keep in mind is that grabbing the ledge opens up many more options for them, so preventing that is both extremely important AND easy to do (just grab it yourself).

Anyone who knows the MU for other air superiority characters feel free to add things.

 

[FlamingForce]

I've been getting a stupid amount of mileage out of full hopping towards the edge while charging neutral B

 

[Xinc]

You can add Down B to your list. Especially vs Roy. That works fine vs Marth and others peeps too.. if you use it well.

That's extremely situational and punishable, but a very good option. High risk high reward.