How do you deal with ZSS's down B camping?

[profs]

I made a post about this on the Smash subreddit, but I though I'd try my luck here too.

I'm honestly at a loss. I fought a guy who after I had beaten pretty handily several times switched character to ZSS and just kept spamming down-B over and over. He even went as far as to throw away his first stock just so he could flaunt his bull**** tactic even more

But seriously, how do you counter this? I can usually figure out how to deal with most gimmicky strategies, and I'm fairly confident in my ability to read my opponent, but no matter how good my predictions were I just couldn't punish that stupid move! It's invincible during its first half, it can be performed at different lengths, it's really quick, has virtually no end lag when done without the kick, and the kick itself has very high priority so it's super risky to challenge. The move feels so ridiculously safe, I usually never tried to challenge it when I fought other ZSS, but when someone just starts camping with it I'm forced to approach them. My mains are DK and Captain Falcon.

TL;DR: Zero Suit Samus' down B feels really safe. How do I punish it?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

TL;DR: Zero Suit Samus' down B feels really safe. How do I punish it?

Sheild and/or dodge. She's become extremely vulnerable because there's so much ending lag in that move.

 

[profs]

Sheild and/or dodge. She's become extremely vulnerable because there's so much ending lag in that move.

But that's only if the kick misses. If I shield the attack she just rebounds and we're back to neutral, and if she chooses not to attack she does not suffer much lag at all and can either attack, grab, dodge or just down b away again. It feels like I basically have to guess what she's going to do, and since I have to be in shield to begin with that limits my options by a lot.

 

[David Viran]

If she bounces off your sheild without the kick she can't do anything until she lands accept move left and right.

 

[profs]

If she bounces off your sheild without the kick she can't do anything until she lands accept move left and right.

Yeah, but that's only if she kicks my shield. What makes it so difficult to deal with is that if she doesn't kick she can do whatever she wants and I'm forced to do any of my OoS options. I can't risk attacking her before she hits the ground since her kick is so disjointed, so I'm forced to wait until she is on the ground before I'm safe to do anything, and by that time that happens she is free to do any action in response to mine.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, but that's only if she kicks my shield. What makes it so difficult to deal with is that if she doesn't kick she can do whatever she wants and I'm forced to do any of my OoS options. I can't risk attacking her before she hits the ground since her kick is so disjointed, so I'm forced to wait until she is on the ground before I'm safe to do anything, and by that time that happens she is free to do any action in response to mine.

You didn't get it.
If she misses, kick or not, she can't do anything until she touches the ground (if she started it from the ground or wasted her double jump if done in the air), which means she's vulnerable and you can strike.

 

[profs]

You didn't get it.
If she misses, kick or not, she can't do anything until she touches the ground (if she started it from the ground or wasted her double jump if done in the air), which means she's vulnerable and you can strike.

Yeah, I know the bounce is automatic, but you can shorten the length of the down B mid jump to not hit someone's shield, which means if she sees you shielding she'll just shorten it and not hit you, and there's so little landing lag if the hit doesn't connect that she's free to do anything afterwards.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, I know the bounce is automatic, but you can shorten the length of the down B mid jump to not hit someone's shield, which means if she sees you shielding she'll just shorten it and not hit you, and there's so little landing lag if the hit doesn't connect that she's free to do anything afterwards.

Then, when you see she shortens her jump length, use a pr...Oh you're a DK main......Then, I recommend dodging.

 

[profs]

Then, when you see she shortens her jump length, use a pr...Oh you're a DK main......Then, I recommend dodging.

I mean, I know down B is not impossible to punish, it's just that it seems like it can be used as a crutch in certain match-ups since it's so safe. I basically had to hard read correctly every time or I'd either get nothing for dodging the attack or eat a heavy punish. Could run up shield (to force the bounce) be a good option, or does ZSS just land behind you?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I mean, I know down B is not impossible to punish, it's just that it seems like it can be used as a crutch in certain match-ups since it's so safe. I basically had to hard read correctly every time or I'd either get nothing for dodging the attack or eat a heavy punish. Could run up shield (to force the bounce) be a good option, or does ZSS just land behind you?

It could surprise the ZSS the first time, leaving you with a potential punish, but people learn, so I'd suggest you to simply find multiple ways to confuss her and use them one at a time.

 

[David Viran]

Jump at her and air dodge to force the bounce.

 

[profs]

Jump at her and air dodge to force the bounce.

I didn't know air dodging did that. Great advice!

It could surprise the ZSS the first time, leaving you with a potential punish, but people learn, so I'd suggest you to simply find multiple ways to confuss her and use them one at a time.

Okay, thanks!

 

[IWinToLose]

Read it and hit him in mid-air. I do this all the time.

 

[pichuthedk]

Her footstool will not hurt you if you are intangible or throwing out a move ( not all moves work but quite a lot of them do) ,
So you can literally just jump at her and either do a move that lingers /airdodge and counter her before she recovers from the end lag.

Note that if you jump at her she will foot stool you higher then normal which can potentaily make her able to act before she hits the ground.

It suck's that your having trouble at the moment with her flip jump but people who spam her flip jump are not the zero suits you need to worry about, The ones who use her flip jump and kick to slide and cancel off ledges/platforms are the ones you should fear.

get murdered by her flip jump enough and you will either rage and quit the game or get tired of losing to it and figure it out.

 

[extremechiton]

With some characters, you can immediately fair out of shield after confirmed hit on block.