How do I win neutral more often?

[cWebSmash]

I feel like when I have the momentum of the game, nothing stops me. Getting that momentum going is the difficult part. I feel like I'm constantly locked down by my opponent and there's nothing I can do. How do I get in on someone when they are going to town on me and my shield?

 

[PepaCorn]

Shine out of Shield is probably best in my opinion. Most people can space well enough to avoid being shield grabbed. You can also buffer a roll, spot dodge or jump with your c-stick to get out.

However I do recommend that you practice shine out of shield as it is very quick and puts you back on the offence. If you don't know how to do this, slightly angle your shield down out of the neutral position, jump and very quickly down-b. The easiest way to do this is probably to slide from Y to B.

 

[Spoice]

Laser
Laser
Laser
For the love of god Laser
.
.
.
.
Did I mention laser?

For shielding, just shine outta shield and what not.

Then

Laser
Laser
Laser

 

[cWebSmash]

Shine out of Shield is probably best in my opinion. Most people can space well enough to avoid being shield grabbed. You can also buffer a roll, spot dodge or jump with your c-stick to get out.

However I do recommend that you practice shine out of shield as it is very quick and puts you back on the offence. If you don't know how to do this, slightly angle your shield down out of the neutral position, jump and very quickly down-b. The easiest way to do this is probably to slide from Y to B.

Now is it necessary to not leave the ground like I'm doing a mulitishine or does it not matter if I jump first then shine

 

[cWebSmash]

Laser
Laser
Laser
For the love of god Laser
.
.
.
.
Did I mention laser?

For shielding, just shine outta shield and what not.

Then

Laser
Laser
Laser

I often see people do dash back, dash forward, shl. Is this a better option than just running back reverse shl or standing shl. Whats the purpose of that?

 

[Rlagkrud]

I often see people do dash back, dash forward, shl. Is this a better option than just running back reverse shl or standing shl. Whats the purpose of that?

Mind games. It's just dash dancing while you laser, which adds an extra layer of unpredictability to your movements.

 

[Spoice]

I often see people do dash back, dash forward, shl. Is this a better option than just running back reverse shl or standing shl. Whats the purpose of that?

Never standing laser, shl autocancels (or has extremely little lag) to the point where every move is possible once you land. Dash dance is just another mind game, running back to reversed shl can be predictable and if your opponent catches on they can just take the laser and run in for an attack, compared to if you dash dance before, it'll mess up their plan to approach the neutral a bit more.

 

[The Prodigy]

Simply put, focus on lasers and on controlling aerial game. Falco's lasers allow him to approach on the aggressive-- but also allow him to be extremely neutral and controlling of the flow of the game.

 

[GenNyan]

Now is it necessary to not leave the ground like I'm doing a mulitishine or does it not matter if I jump first then shine

Well, its not strictly neccesary, but from the air you can only double jump after the shine. This means you have no access to shorthop, and it takes your double jump. This puts you in a questionable spot, where it might be really hard to capitalize off the shine (and if the shine misses, you're screwed). A lot of the time you'll also want to be able to wavedash out of the Shine OOS.

Something you can do with this however, is if you have a low platform above you (great on FoD, decent on PS, YS, BF, meh on DL), you can wavedash onto the plat above and falling aerial to apply pressure or just get away and reset to neutral.

 

[MH | Joeschmo]

run shine is godlike

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

If they are sufficiently close to be hit by it, shine OoS. If in front but slightly farther, you can shield grab (1 frame slower) or usmash oos (2 frames slower), though the latter is worse when they're at 0. If they're further away, WD oos or if it's safe, laser oos. You can also roll or spotdodge during the startup of a move if you can see it or predict it and not have to worry about shield stun, or buffer roll or spotdodge if they aren't using a frame trap of some sort. Only spotdodge if you actually expect to get a hit off of it, for the most part.

Also, try to avoid ending up in shield in the first place. You may not be Fox, but upsmash has a great hitbox. If someone's jumping at you regularly, you can just flick up on the c-stick, and often completely beat the move they tried to approach with. You can also try to wall people out with bair (doing this towards them makes it easier to do a similar tactic to the "just upsmash" one I mentioned, as well as DD grab or shield grab). You can also dash out of the way, nair in place (if it won't trade) or, again most moves in this game, CC shine and ruin the opponent's day. The higher your percent, the less you want to do the last one, and you should avoid doing it vs. moves that primarily knock you downward, multihit moves, and moves that are sufficiently strong (say, Knee strength and higher). Also, uptilt is amazing, but like pretty much anything, can be dd grabbed, and can also be punished oos.

Even if you're super comfortable wavedashing max distance in either direction on a dime, maximizing dash dance distance, covering the entire foxtrot window, can run cancelling with crouch as early as possible, just adding in walking to your movement is useful. You're not confined to any set ranges, windows, or unactionable periods, and aren't forced to roll for pressing shield too early. It will also likely make it easier for you to react to things.

Retreating aerials are harder to punish, overshoot to beat dash dance. Or just laser.

Shooting a high laser allows you to go under it if they powershield, and a low one can be jumped over. You're in control of laser height, use it to your advantage.

 

[cWebSmash]

run shine is godlike

Its so slow though. I cant just run to them and shine right? How do I approach them safely I guess

 

[Spoice]

Its so slow though. I cant just run to them and shine right? How do I approach them safely I guess

like I said

laser
laser
laser

slowly approach with each one, dash dance a bit, get some wavedashes in to interrupt your flow, as soon as you see an opening, go in for the kill.

Running shine with falco is fairly tougher than with fox due to less speed, so you've gotta just be patient and tactical about it.

 

[Twinkles]

Its so slow though. I cant just run to them and shine right? How do I approach them safely I guess

Close space with SHL, then running shine at them. It's not much less safe than any of your other options in that scenario considering it's a 1 frame jump-cancellable move

 

[TeeJay308]

Dude, have you even seen Falco run? Chances are you're getting hit in the face if you try to run at someone just like that with Falco. Shine itself might be safe, but just running at them is not.

 

[Crip]

If you've threatened shield pressure before, then the opponent will expect it. So if you're running at them, they expect the aerial or laser pressure, and will likely hold shield or try to retreat (roll, wd oos). This gives you a window to do a run up shine, into grab or more shield pressure.

 

[TeeJay308]

It works with Fox because people can't react to a dashdancing Fox running up to them. Falco misses this kind of mobility and needs to cover his approaches with a laser. I'm sorry, it seems more like an unnecessarily risky gimmick to me. Why would you run in with his very slow run speed, when you can just laser approach instead? Somethign like laser, land in front of their shield and instantly shine is way safer and faster to boot (I think his forward jumping speed is actually faster than his running speed)

 

[GenNyan]

It works with Fox because people can't react to a dashdancing Fox running up to them. Falco misses this kind of mobility and needs to cover his approaches with a laser. I'm sorry, it seems more like an unnecessarily risky gimmick to me. Why would you run in with his very slow run speed, when you can just laser approach instead? Somethign like laser, land in front of their shield and instantly shine is way safer and faster to boot (I think his forward jumping speed is actually faster than his running speed)

Because for every time it doesn't work, you maybe eat a small chunk of damage, but when it does work, you can get more than 40% or even a stock. And you can make it work more often by properly conditioning your opponent. Say you approach with a laser, every time. The opponent will shield, every time. Now that you know he'll shield, you can get a free shine. Using lasers as your only approach will severely limit your play. (Not to mention lasers can be power shielded)

 

[KrozoMagnus]

Guys, lasers are great and all, but more falcos need to be able to win neutral without them. Building that fundamental to your gameplay is crucial to becoming a better player. Yes lasers are an integral part to falcos neutral game, but they aren't unbeatable.

One of my biggest problems was when someone was really good at powershielding and keeping their options open, my lasers were worthless. So instead of just telling someone to laser more, can we talk about what is a good laser? In my struggles i've found that the lasers that work most consistently are:

- If the opponent is in the air (Short hopping or falling with a move)
- An opponent that is already shielding to induce some shield-stun
- Close to the ground, in case the laser is power-shielded you can jump over it.

Also remember any laser you shoot should be spaced at your effective range, where if you get a hit you can get an approach. Also note that if you get hit by a power-shielded laser in your opponents range you can get punished. Usually after getting hit by my laser I will try to laser again and end up down smashing or getting stuck in shine.

Get shield grabbing out of your system, it is only good when your opponent hits close and up on your shield, or if they miss a fast fall or something. Shine out of shield is a great option or even wave dash to shine if they are spaced further away.

I hope I could be some help. I haven't been active on smashboards at all and I want to start being more often.