How do I pressure Marth better?

[Les Bubbles]

So I like to play lots of Fox, pressing buttons is incredibly fun. But I have a problem applying pressure, specifically VS Marth.
Sometimes I can get follow ups after a hit during pressure, but sometimes I just can't tell when/if they're gonna drop shield. I have no problem hitting their shield and can almost always get consistent nair shines and such kinds of pressure, but sometimes I get a shine off/they roll away but just keep tech skilling on nothing because I couldn't react fast enough to the hit/roll. I try to chase them afterwards, but they're already out of hit stun/lag and just end up F-smashing me or something.

I also try getting a nair shine into wavedash backwards so I can apply some blank pressure (the pressure where you do nothing but scare them into rolling or doing something out of shield) so that I can try reacting to their OOS, but Marths like to shield grab and it covers enough space to where it will grab my wavedash backwards before I can position myself for proper spacing.

Is this kind of thing just gonna happen sometimes and I can't do anything about it, or is there some kind of unbeatable pressure that covers everything which I just don't know about?

 

[Pauer]

Is this kind of thing just gonna happen sometimes and I can't do anything about it, or is there some kind of unbeatable pressure that covers everything which I just don't know about?

The thing about shield pressure is that there isn't some magical setup that'll guarantee a hit. You will always have a rock-paper-scissors type mindgame, but if done right, that mindgame is skewed heavily in Fox's favor.

What you describe as your problem, i would describe as facts:
-If you wavedash back after the shine, you can get grabbed
-You won't be able to get a direct follow-up after the shine unless you waveshine immediately
-you can't follow their roll if you are stuck in an aerial while they're rolling.

I'd say you should take these facts as givens and plan around them.

 

[Les Bubbles]

Alright, that answers most of my questions. I figured there wasn't really any way to get guaranteed follow ups unless people's reaction times are instant or the roll/dropped shield is read, but what about pulling out of pressure? Is that also 50/50 or do you know of safe was to pull out mid pressure?

 

[Pauer]

unless people's reaction times are instant or the roll/dropped shield is read,

Well, you can easily react to a roll if you're standing or about to land, just not if you're rising with a new aerial.

I'm also not sure whether you should "pull out" on a regular basis. I think it's more of a read.
You're prone to getting grabbed(I really don't know under which circumstances you can get grabbed, whether you can also get grabbed wavedashing behind them, what the leniency is, etc.) and maybe you can't cover the roll in the other direction (especially if they roll during your wavedash) , but if they do roll towards you, you can get a good punish and if they stay in shield, you're in a very good spot.

I unfortunately don't know what top fox mains do but I'd say getting behind Marth is definitely a good goal since you can safely wait a bit whenever you suspect a roll and at the same time, Marth could always get grabbed after an aerial or shine if he doesn't roll.

 

[Les Bubbles]

Awesome, thanks! I'll try to find some way to manage to find my way behind Marths, cross-ups maybe? idk, but this was very useful.

 

[g_f]

You could mix in shineless pressure (nair -> nair -> nair), jab pressure (jab -> crouch -> jab), shieldstab attempt (nair -> shine -> dair with no fastfall). hitting a nair, a jab or a drill definitely leads to more than just a shine vs marth

 

[MrWeavile]

If you have a marth in shield, being in or near his space is pressure enough. His OOS options are pretty pitiful if you're in a position to react to them.
That's more of a safe way to pressure him though. For more aggressive/button pressing, try some somewhat safer options to get a feel for what the marth does. For example, sometimes the marth will wait for the shine, then buffer roll. Sometimes, he'll wait until you mess up. Sometimes he'll lightshield and push himself to the edge. Once you get a feel for what options he usually takes, then you can start abusing it with the right options.

 

[jazz_1993]

I don't know how much you do this already but it's a good idea to mix shine-grabs intto your pressure. When the marth gets caught by it (heavy punish should ensue btw) they will feel more urgency to get out of shield next time they are pressured. They will be more likely to spot-dodge of buffer roll sooner, and it will be an easier read for you to make.

 

[Les Bubbles]

jazz_1993 Cool. Shinegrabs are something I don't implement as often for some reason. I can do them just fine, it's just a habit to go ham on shield instead.
MrWeavile Aight then. This is good advice since I'm trying to find out ways to pick up on player habits better in general.
G g_f Yeah I do that stuff sometimes, but people usually find ways to punish me for most of it since it's not really safe.
Thanks for the advice everyone, helps out a lot.