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How Do I Mindgame + Donkey Kong

Zeafling

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2014
Messages
29
Location
United States!
3DS FC
4897-6462-0307
I needed to psot this thread for two reasons: I always lose to any heavy hitters, and I need to know how to mindgame. I am guessing that is the reason I lose - I'm so predictable. I can destroy anybody on For Glory for the most part, but if they use DK or Gannon, its over and I always lose. Thanks guys, I really need help o.O
 

ATH_

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
757
Location
California
3DS FC
0963-0267-2548
Switch FC
6592-1642-9705
I needed to psot this thread for two reasons: I always lose to any heavy hitters, and I need to know how to mindgame. I am guessing that is the reason I lose - I'm so predictable. I can destroy anybody on For Glory for the most part, but if they use DK or Gannon, its over and I always lose. Thanks guys, I really need help o.O
To mindgame is to predict what your opponent will do in a situation given to them and respond with something that counters their action, while another part of a mindgame is to condition your opponent into doing something and punishing their action. A lot of other things are in it and you can't really be taught how to mindgame, you simply have to practice it.

Pay attention to your opponents habits and flaws in their gameplay, then exploit the hell out of them. During the Neutral the main mindgame that is held is the RPS situation where Grab beats Shield, Shield beats Attack, and Attack beats Grab. Predicting what your opponent and acting upon it will begin a mindgame.

What's so "game" like of a mindgame you ask? Simply put, because reverse-psychology exists, there is never a definitive answer to a situation. Think about it like this.

Layer 1:
I am going to use an Attack expecting a Grab.

Layer 2:
What if they know I'll attack though, because they have planted the thought of them using a Grab? It would be best to Grab then, wouldn't it? Since they would Shield the expected attack.

Layer 3:
BUT, wouldn't Shield also be a neutral choice? Unless they do the Grab as initially expected...Then Attack is the best option.

Essentially Layer 3 is using the same logic as Layer 1.
This is what the basic mindgame is shown in a game like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Your opponent will pick either a Defensive option, an Offensive option, or a Commanding Option no matter what in these states, so which do you expect and how are you going to counter it?

It's not as simple as Shield, Grab, Attack sometimes though, different Attacks will pressure a shield and not allow the opponent to punish with a Shield-grab. Some will fake you out to select an option in order to punish whatever option you selected, but that in itself is a mindgame.

This is just an example of what kind of things you wanna be thinking about when playing. Be aware of your habits and predict what your opponent will do based on them, and counter them, as Habits truly are the only way we can be closer to certain with what an opponent will do.
 

Raijinken

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
4,420
Location
Durham, NC
The key detail about essentially all heavy-hitting characters is that they are very punish-based, and thus have to read well to play well. If you're having trouble against them, odds are you're being a bit too predictable. Just going off of your avatar block that says you main Ness, I'm assuming you either rely heavily on dash attacks, PK Fire, or grabs. Try to mix those together unpredictably, or go for short-hopped neutral aerials. Ness has pretty good aerial mobility, so you can approach fairly safely that way. On the other hand, if you see them (say, Ganondorf) start charging anti-air smashes (usmash, for instance) to catch you, swap your approach up again. Also, both Dorf and Kong are pretty terrible against PK Fire.
 

digiholic

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
678
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
NNID
digiholic
The best way to beat someone who's in your head is to do something really stupid. If you're Ness and they're reading you like a book, just do something that makes no sense, like PK Thundering yourself at them from neutral. It's so unbelievably stupid they couldn't possibly have planned for it.
 

pichuthedk

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
1,075
Location
Toronto
Unless they are zero suit since that's a free dSmash punish OoS xD. But then again I have a tendency of challenging ok thunerd every so often.
 

Kornaki

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
29
Mind games are based on two things. It takes about .2 to .25 seconds for somebody to react to an expected change like a box changing colors (put a big box on the screen, say 'click when it turns green!' and it takes .2 seconds after it changes colors). The time it takes between hitting the attack button and a smash attack coming out is what? Five frames maybe? Certainly not longer than .2 seconds.

So if you ever run up to an opponent, in principle if you time your dash attack correctly they can't do anything about it. They won't have time! Of course, everyone knows if you just run up to an opponent and dash attack, you will get shielded every time (or worse). That's because they know you're going to dash attack. If they are literally waiting to see your dash attack, it should be trivial for you to hit them every time if you place your attack perfectly.

The first step to mind gaming is noticing when this happens. If you do something that your opponent should not be able to react to, but they are, then you are being predictable. Space away from your opponent, and figure out something you can do in the same situation, e.g. a dash grab. Then when the dash grab stops working because they are predicting it, do something else.


There is a much larger human reaction time that you can take advantage of. There was a study done to see how long it takes for drivers to react to unexpected stimuli. Depending on what the people were reacting to, it took 1 to 1.5 seconds to process it on average, and start the braking process (just start braking, not stop the car). Similarly, if you do something totally unexpected or put your opponent in an unfamiliar situation, your opponent could take up to 1 whole second (not just .2 seconds) to begin reacting to it. As your action is more predictable, they get closer to that .2 second reaction time. Someone who has perfect mindgames in some sense would be able to do moves that take a whole second and still hit their opponent, because their moves are just completely unexpected and the opponent has no idea what to do about it. In practice that's impossible, but you should be able to connect with moves that take a decent amount of time (e.g. short hop neutral air) if your opponent doesn't know beforehand that you are going to do it.

So basically, while you're playing, evaluate your opponent's reaction time. If they are reacting to things that should take less than .2 seconds to connect, you are too predictable and literally just need to do something different. It doesn't matter much what it is, just anything different should work.
 

Retlaf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
140
The first step to mind gaming is noticing when this happens. If you do something that your opponent should not be able to react to, but they are, then you are being predictable. Space away from your opponent, and figure out something you can do in the same situation, e.g. a dash grab. Then when the dash grab stops working because they are predicting it, do something else.
I just want to emphasize that this is a really good description of mind games. When you are approaching unpredictably, you can definitely notice how much longer your opponent keeps their shield up, etc.
 
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