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How do I beat Metaknight as Lucas?

piefayth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
12
So far my strategy has been to space myself with PK Fire, cancel his specials with it, and airdodge out of combos like nobody's business.

But his high-priority basically keeps me from landing any aerials, and he's hard to punish. It's even worse when he chases me off the edge (100% of the time), because he just knocks me out of PK Thunder.

Some tips, Lucas mainers?
 

Hardcorenesser

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
440
Location
Visalia, California
i have trouble with meta knight too. shield grabbing works well. also, avoid pkt2 recovery (unless you are far enough away), it is an easy kill for meta knight. use zap jumping and that b-stick pk fire -> psi magnet recovery. also when he charges use dsmash. the first hit will probably be cancelled out by mk's attack but the second or third should hit him. just don't do it too much or they will jump right over it. just use it every now and then.
 

Batteries

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Storrs, CT
PK freeze will be your friend, especially since some of his more common moves take a while to finish. Can't cancel that one by hitting it, and its fast enough to punish with.
 

Fhed

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 1, 2008
Messages
94
Location
Reseda, California
I suggest using short hop pk fire often. Use the tether recovery whenever possible. Combo-nair to up tilt
Use aerials.
 

MTFFFG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
88
Location
Hockey Town
i don't think that metaknight has good range on his grabs so i would recommend shield grabbing him. To tell you the truth i have been annoyed by metaknight as well because of his priority to my aerial attacks. Your tilts are the answer because they are faster, have better priority and have enough knockback to cancel your his combos. But again just keep your spacing because lucas's slow speed hinders him when against such a fast attacking character like metaknight.
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
Meta is a tough counter to Lucas. Here's the rundown on the matchup.

Three Rules of Meta Fighting
1) PATIENCE.
2) Create Opportunities
3) Recognize Patterns

The first Rule of fighting Metaknight is patience. The idea behind a good Meta is to form spacing patterns with his low lag attacks, like F-air, F-tilt, and Downsmash, while he builds damage and sets up for a KO with a Downsmash or Up-B. Don't give him the hits. When meta is in the air he can't grab you or chase you horizontally very well so use your roll and shield to your advantage. When he attacks you on the ground, you can generally shield and retaliate or move away effectively, and I'll get into more on avoiding his patterns later, but for now, just avoid getting hit. Once meta gets a good hit on you it'll pop you up and you can take a lot of damage if you don't play your cards right in an aerial battle. So being VERY patient, taking your time, and camping meta is KEY. You have a stronger projectile game and that is your damage edge.

As Meta attacks you you'll find that you can't just run forever; you have to land your kill moves. However, if you can fluster him with PK fire, it may open an opportunity for an 80% U-smash, and you should almost ALWAYS take a gamble if it will result in a kill for you. A good kill setup against Meta is if he misses a dash attack or laggy attack and has a habit of rolling, quickly run behind him and plant a downsmash. The gamble is you getting a kill or an edgeguard opportunity against him getting a few punishing hits in.

Of course, throwing out attacks into space is going to get you chipped away into oblivion. Metaknight has weaknesses, and for the most part, they are his ground attacks. Meta's ground attacks have high returns when they land; the U-smash and D-Smash especially, and his F-Smash and F-Tilt are both low lag forward-hitting attacks that you will not be able to space or beat out effectively, and down-tilt is great for pressure and can build good damage, but while he's doing a ground attack, he cannot move away and space, and this will often be your opportunity to strike. In order for you to be prepared to strike, however, you MUST recognize his patterns. Think of it like a Boss in Mega Man; you must spend time dodging attacks and when the boss presents and opening, inflict maximum damage!

A few examples; I've played Metas that downsmashed after almost every attack and downsmashed after half of their downsmashes. I quickly learned that running at them after a F-smash or F-air would just get me smacked in the head, so I adjusted, ran forward and shielded the downsmash, and followed up with a fast N-air which would open up further damage opportunities, mostly tilts, and I could grab my KOs when I needed them, but then I ran into a Meta with a surprising trick; he would downsmash me, and sometimes, Up-B out of the downsmash and knock me off the stage. I got ***** for a match and a half before I caught on, but after a little, I started rolling away occasionally after the downsmash, and then I could plant a quick stick in retaliation to his Up-B (after I dodged the come-down attack as well). I ended up losing the set anyway, but it just goes to show how you can adapt to any situation.

Further tidbits of info:
PKT2 will beat out almost any attack that Meta has, don't be afraid to plant it straight through his aerials, so it's good to use in moderation.
Meta's Dash attack can be shield dropped into a stick.
Build damage always, build it until your f-air can KO. PK fire is your unholy tool of camping in this matchup, I swear to satan I do at least 50 damage a stock with it. Remember to do it low when you SH it. The more opportunities you can get to safely build damage, the better you'll be, because your upsmash is butt slow and hard to pull off so you want stick and dsmash available.
Speaking of dsmash metas will jump into that if you stand on a platform like dragonflies on an Indiana windshield.
Other than realy clear opportunities, don't use your stick. One, it's too short ranged to be effective, two it's kinda slow, and three you don't want diminishing returns to kick in, you need every ounce of tree branch power you can muster.
Grab combos are good (see combo thread for details) and you can KO with shield grabs at high percent.
 

Hardcorenesser

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
440
Location
Visalia, California
Meta is a tough counter to Lucas. Here's the rundown on the matchup.

Three Rules of Meta Fighting
1) PATIENCE.
2) Create Opportunities
3) Recognize Patterns

The first Rule of fighting Metaknight is patience. The idea behind a good Meta is to form spacing patterns with his low lag attacks, like F-air, F-tilt, and Downsmash, while he builds damage and sets up for a KO with a Downsmash or Up-B. Don't give him the hits. When meta is in the air he can't grab you or chase you horizontally very well so use your roll and shield to your advantage. When he attacks you on the ground, you can generally shield and retaliate or move away effectively, and I'll get into more on avoiding his patterns later, but for now, just avoid getting hit. Once meta gets a good hit on you it'll pop you up and you can take a lot of damage if you don't play your cards right in an aerial battle. So being VERY patient, taking your time, and camping meta is KEY. You have a stronger projectile game and that is your damage edge.

As Meta attacks you you'll find that you can't just run forever; you have to land your kill moves. However, if you can fluster him with PK fire, it may open an opportunity for an 80% U-smash, and you should almost ALWAYS take a gamble if it will result in a kill for you. A good kill setup against Meta is if he misses a dash attack or laggy attack and has a habit of rolling, quickly run behind him and plant a downsmash. The gamble is you getting a kill or an edgeguard opportunity against him getting a few punishing hits in.

Of course, throwing out attacks into space is going to get you chipped away into oblivion. Metaknight has weaknesses, and for the most part, they are his ground attacks. Meta's ground attacks have high returns when they land; the U-smash and D-Smash especially, and his F-Smash and F-Tilt are both low lag forward-hitting attacks that you will not be able to space or beat out effectively, and down-tilt is great for pressure and can build good damage, but while he's doing a ground attack, he cannot move away and space, and this will often be your opportunity to strike. In order for you to be prepared to strike, however, you MUST recognize his patterns. Think of it like a Boss in Mega Man; you must spend time dodging attacks and when the boss presents and opening, inflict maximum damage!

A few examples; I've played Metas that downsmashed after almost every attack and downsmashed after half of their downsmashes. I quickly learned that running at them after a F-smash or F-air would just get me smacked in the head, so I adjusted, ran forward and shielded the downsmash, and followed up with a fast N-air which would open up further damage opportunities, mostly tilts, and I could grab my KOs when I needed them, but then I ran into a Meta with a surprising trick; he would downsmash me, and sometimes, Up-B out of the downsmash and knock me off the stage. I got ***** for a match and a half before I caught on, but after a little, I started rolling away occasionally after the downsmash, and then I could plant a quick stick in retaliation to his Up-B (after I dodged the come-down attack as well). I ended up losing the set anyway, but it just goes to show how you can adapt to any situation.

Further tidbits of info:
PKT2 will beat out almost any attack that Meta has, don't be afraid to plant it straight through his aerials, so it's good to use in moderation.
Meta's Dash attack can be shield dropped into a stick.
Build damage always, build it until your f-air can KO. PK fire is your unholy tool of camping in this matchup, I swear to satan I do at least 50 damage a stock with it. Remember to do it low when you SH it. The more opportunities you can get to safely build damage, the better you'll be, because your upsmash is butt slow and hard to pull off so you want stick and dsmash available.
Speaking of dsmash metas will jump into that if you stand on a platform like dragonflies on an Indiana windshield.
Other than realy clear opportunities, don't use your stick. One, it's too short ranged to be effective, two it's kinda slow, and three you don't want diminishing returns to kick in, you need every ounce of tree branch power you can muster.
Grab combos are good (see combo thread for details) and you can KO with shield grabs at high percent.

geez i am too tired to read all that... can't you sum it up into a paragraph for us lazy people?
 

MTFFFG

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
88
Location
Hockey Town
well said technomonster. great post. you could of shortened it but i guess you wanted to feel useful, didn't you?
 

piefayth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
12
Good stuff, everyone. Especially technomonster.

If MK rushes me for a grab (his dashing grab has such good range and speed), can I counter that with a downsmash?
 

piefayth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
12
Excellent point. :)

I still can't seem to be able to predict the difference between an incoming dash attack and an incoming dashing grab, and it's driving me nuts. I could jump to avoid the situation entirely, but with his arial priority, I've only left myself open to

u-air, u-air, u-air, n-air

Ow. I mean, sure I'm spamming air dodge to get the hell out of it, but you see my point. >_<
 

Batteries

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
38
Location
Storrs, CT
Excellent point. :)

I still can't seem to be able to predict the difference between an incoming dash attack and an incoming dashing grab, and it's driving me nuts. I could jump to avoid the situation entirely, but with his arial priority, I've only left myself open to

u-air, u-air, u-air, n-air

Ow. I mean, sure I'm spamming air dodge to get the hell out of it, but you see my point. >_<
Use your d-air to counter that. It lasts for a significantly longer time than any of MK's attacks and the hexagons have a tad more range than his sword.
 

kyle?!

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
49
Location
Tennessee
Learn to chase with a PK Thunder when we goes off the edge. The more you do it the more he's gimped the more low % KO's you can get. Once his extra jumps are used up his B moves do give a whole lot of vertical assistance.
 

PKboy89

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
470
Location
Tuckahoe, don't say anything...lol
Well, Lucas is my main and I also had trouble with meta knight at first, but now I can kick his butt back to Dream Land^.^Lol. The key is patience, as somebody said before in a post. Metaknight wants you to rush at him, cause he's got a sword with great range, so you gotta be patient and think. You gotta love your pk fire. Metaknight doesn't have a projectile so thats better for you. As a Lucas player, when I use pk fire, i have three things in mind.
1) Push the opponent back
2) Pull the opponent to me
3) Stop the opponent from rushing
Metaknight is a pretty speedy character, so pk fire will stop him in his tracks and thats your chance to jump in with a good short hop entry. Use your pk fire to your advantage. Be careful if you are going to try and spike him. His up air attacks really fast, his neutral air can kill you and his up b can kill you. You really gotta try to predict his moves. He is a really light character so once you start ranking up damage on him, you can start to toss him around like a pinball. Be careful with your pk thunder recovery, cause metaknight can go off the stage and intercept. If he attacks from above, time your pk thunder to hit him wit the ball, knocking him back and giving you a chance to recover and reverse the edgeguard. Those are just some tips, the rest is up to you, every player has their own unique fighting style, I'm sure you can think of something
 

TechnoMonster

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
836
tl;dr on my post; PK fire a lot for a damage advantage, take good gambles (aka throw out the occasional upsmash or downsmash at a KO %), take your free hits and don't give him anything.

If they're running in for a grab or dash attack you can retreat with a neutral air and you won't get hit. Grabs aren't a major concern, it's the ensuing juggle attempt that you have to get out of.
 

Trozz

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
611
Location
Canada, BC
I have a friend who plays a lot of Metaknight, so I'm very familiar with the matchup.

Use spells often. U-smash is your friend (although, you'll probably get much more kills using the bat). B-air is a good approach, but I prefer d-air to jab/f-smash.

Alternate using B and the c-stick to cast PK Fire, so sometimes you get pushed back and sometimes you don't. It'll make him unable to devise a counter. Get really good with your arial dodges; you'll need them. The rope snake throw has a massive delay if you miss, so don't use it often; Metaknight will jump all over your errors. I recommend you play on a map with some platforms instead of something just flat.
 

kyle?!

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
49
Location
Tennessee
If you're pretty comfortable with your bair spikes and pkt2 recovery, I would recommend waiting until MK is at about 50% and throw him off the stage with a bthrow or fthrow then chase him with a bair 2nd jump bair and then pk thunder , pass it through him (knocking him out the side) and bring it back and hit yourself back onto the stage.

It sounds harder than it actually is, and there are going to be some variables to it, but if the situation is to arise, you'll know how to do it.
 

Powda

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
154
Location
Vegas
I find wave bouncing to be highly effective in this matchup. One of my internet buddies mains MK and he would punish me anytime I missed PKF. Throwing SH PKF in with SH wavebounce messes with their heads until they make mistakes.

I found edgeguarding MK to be alot easier than other characters as he is so slow in the air and predictable. If he is coming back from above, threaten him with running Usmashs. Once he realizes he is gonna be dodging that the whole game, he'll come in lower where you can chase him with PKT. Dsmash is priceless if you can lure MK to an edge grab. He swoops in soo slow and the Dsmash catches him alot. Sometimes I'll Dsmash before he even reaches the edge to make him nervous.

<3 edgegaurding with lucas.
 

Prax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
417
Location
Lynnwood, Washington
You know whats funny? A bunch of people are saying that Lucas is a good counter for Metaknight over in the Metaknight forums. I don't play against any good Lucases so I can't be sure though.
 

piefayth

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
12
Was watching my friend play a good Toon Link last night as Metaknight. TL just spot-dodged his charges and punished them.

Played him today and utilized the same strategy. It's almost impossible to punish with a down smash if he's not going to roll into it, but spot dodging then throwing a quick fsmash absolutely obliterates MK's combo game. If you make a mistake and he gets you in the air, airdodge out, get to the ground and space yourself.

Lots of PK Fire. Get amazing with your aim for it, as well as faking it out. You can destroy his approach with it. If he starts trying to strike while you're winding one up, start faking out pk fires. (Auto-RARing does wonders) He'll charge you and take a spot-dodge bat to the face.
 

Trozz

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
611
Location
Canada, BC
I can take MKs. TLs on the other hand... blah. I guess it's all in who you play against. I don't know anyone who mains MK.
 

ollenberger121

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
109
yup i play MK and he cant move very fast in the air so take advantage of pk thunder ....its the best move against him by far.....plus it will make users rush in like a fool then you can punish them
 

PKboy89

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
470
Location
Tuckahoe, don't say anything...lol
You should take advantage of your throws. Don't just grab out of nowhere, cause that will get you killed since his grab gets nasty lag afterwards, but he is light, and Lucas actually has decent throwing power, take advantage, you can toss him around like a rag doll, and even kill him with a forward throw or back throw near the edge at mid, high percentages since metaknight is so light. If you can, pick stages like battlefield or lylat cruise, use your hitboxes with upsmash and dsmash to your advantage with the platforms. Try avoid the wide stages like smashville or final dest...you have to run a marathon just to reach metaknight at final dest, and he'll just easily counter you with a tilt or down smash after you ran those 5 miles.
 
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