How do I beat a Bait 'n Punish playstyle?

[BrickBot]

Hello. Since the last thread I made helped me quite a bit, I thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread. This thread is actually to help me beat my other friend, who, unlike the first, is very aware and knows what he is doing. His playstyle is very Bait 'n punish and I would really appreciate some help.

He likes to play Ike and Cloud. Both of these characters may not have the best frame data but the disjoint on their attacks and the size of their hitboxs make getting in on them with fox very difficult. I do my best not to fall for any baits, instead opting for lasers but I always end up backed up into the corner. Here, he stays out of my shield grab range and pokes me with tilts. I don't know what to do when I am cornered like this. So far, what I have tried has ended with unfavorable trades or with me getting knocked off stage.

Unlike my first friend, this guy knows how to DI my throws to avoid follow ups. I've been mixing up his DI by using F-throw instead of D-throw but my greatest means of racking up damage are removed and sometimes used against me. Is there a way to practice followups on proper DI in training mode? Or should I give up trying to get followups and only use true combos and play it safe?

Killing him is the hardest part. He plays so safe that there is rarely ever a proper opening to punish. I've tried to stay calm and respect his space, otherwise I risk getting hit by a rage filled Ike and dying at 60%, (I'm looking at you Zei) but I run into the first problem I listed and get cornered. He never commits to anything until I make a mistake. Like a mis-timed Up-smash or a failed auto-cancelled aerial. How do I kill someone who waits on me to mess up?

One final thing. He likes to spot dodge. A lot. What is an appropriate way to punish a spot dodge when I feel like he's about to do it?

 

[Rickster]

One final thing. He likes to spot dodge. A lot. What is an appropriate way to punish a spot dodge when I feel like he's about to do it?

I can't help you with the other stuff (I don't play Fox much anymore), but running up and shielding then grabbing in their endlag is a good way to get past spotdodges. You could also try charging an Usmash, if you're feeling confident. Fox's run-up-shield-grab is usually better than his dash grab anyway, iirc.

You could also try lingering hitboxes like Nair. As you probably know it can set up kills too, so it's a double win.

As a Zelda main, I definitely feel your pain fighting against the bait and punish style, lol.

 

[Duplighost]

I say fight fire with fire. Perhaps you could literally bait his bait, meaning you would make it seem like you were about to do something specifically, yet not, and punishing him for it. Conditioning is very important although it is discrete. Your friend is playing very intelligently, it seems, as he is paying attention to your every move carefully. Use this to your advantage and make him believe he is going to be punishing a mistake that you will not make.

 

[BrickBot]

I can't help you with the other stuff (I don't play Fox much anymore), but running up and shielding then grabbing in their endlag is a good way to get past spotdodges. You could also try charging an Usmash, if you're feeling confident. Fox's run-up-shield-grab is usually better than his dash grab anyway, iirc.

You could also try lingering hitboxes like Nair. As you probably know it can set up kills too, so it's a double win.

As a Zelda main, I definitely feel your pain fighting against the bait and punish style, lol.

I should definitely try run up shield grab. Also, the GIF in your signature is ridiculous. Is that even legit?

I say fight fire with fire. Perhaps you could literally bait his bait, meaning you would make it seem like you were about to do something specifically, yet not, and punishing him for it. Conditioning is very important although it is discrete. Your friend is playing very intelligently, it seems, as he is paying attention to your every move carefully. Use this to your advantage and make him believe he is going to be punishing a mistake that you will not make.

Not to be rude but how do I condition him? He plays incredibly safe and the size of his hitboxs make getting near him without fully committing very difficult. Should I only use auto canceled aerials? Or should I foxtrot in and shield? Fox has to commit to a lot of his options and usually has to play very honestly.

 

[EpicSonicLatios]

One tip that would help you a lot is to use dash attack OOS on some of his pokes. You will be surprised at how many seemingly safe pokes become unsafe against a skilled fox.

 

[Rickster]

I should definitely try run up shield grab. Also, the GIF in your signature is ridiculous. Is that even legit?

Well it only KOs in the gif because Shulk was in Smash mode and Zelda had near max rage. But yes, it is a good setup if you're feeling risky.

It probably wouldn't KO a non-smash art Shulk unless you were on a low ceiling stage.

 

[BrickBot]

Well it only KOs in the gif because Shulk was in Smash mode and Zelda had near max rage. But yes, it is a good setup if you're feeling risky.

It probably wouldn't KO a non-smash art Shulk unless you were on a low ceiling stage.

the fact that that is even possible is absurd.

 

[Rickster]

the fact that that is even possible is absurd.

If it makes you feel any better, the first hit can be DI'd so the second one will either sourspot or miss completely. But remember that the Zelda player can follow your DI if they notice a pattern/react quick enough. The "Elevator" can also be combo'd into via Nair or Dair, but it's used at a frame 8 OoS option most of the time.

Normal KO %s can be between 60-90 depending on weight with good DI. Rage makes it go down to like 30-50, lol.

So basically, what we need to do is

Spoiler

BAN•ZELDA

sorry for the Zelda dump Fox mains. I'll stop infecting your boards with bottom tier trash now

 

[BrickBot]

sorry for the Zelda dump Fox mains. I'll stop infecting your boards with bottom tier trash now

I didn't mean it like that! I think its cool. Like the Mii Brawler one inch punch. Dumb, but cool.

 

[BrickBot]

sorry for the Zelda dump Fox mains. I'll stop infecting your boards with bottom tier trash now

Please don't leave.

 

[Rickster]

I didn't mean it like that! I think its cool. Like the Mii Brawler one inch punch. Dumb, but cool.

Oh! I was meaning it as a joke, lol. You came here asking for Fox advice and I ended up giving everyone a Zelda info dump. Then I mocked Zelda's viability compared to Fox's.

It's all good.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Lol that was a bad air dodge into a platform. I should have known better once he didn't jump. Should've just risked the fair since it wouldn't have killed me.

Let me give you a quick breakdown on how Ike's play and that is what you will need to understand first:

Ike's LOVE grab. And for good reason, it's fast, his pivot grab is large, and he can not only rack damage but on fastfallers (ie Fox) he can actually kill from uthrow > fair around 80% near the ledge. It's true.

They will also be hopping around a lot throwing out nair, bair, and fair. All of these ac out of a short hop and you need to be prepared for this. It's pretty common for them to do a retreating nair to grab when you try to punish the landing lag, of which there is very little.

His jab is fast. I don't know what frame exactly, but it's fast and it's good. They'll cover their mistakes a lot with this.

also watch for bair OoS at kill percents.

Now, for your friend in particular, I did NOT play optimally against him. At all. I went in hard (as I always do) and got punished hard, but I almost took game 2 and if I had I think I could have won game 3 #johns

You're going to want to play bait-and-punish as well. Ike wants to run around and jump, baiting you into committing to an unsafe option and then punish you for it hard. Run in, run out, jump a bit, throw out some lasers and the second you see him commit to an action take note. When you ran up did he try to nair into you? Figure that out. When you manage to find what he likes to do you can bait it out and then punish. It's tough but it can be done! Every time you get a hit it NEEDS to convert into AT LEAST 15%+. His damage output is so much greater than ours on a per-hit basis that being able to punish him once and do a lot of percent + possible stage control is essential. His landing options are very alright and our advantage is so good that if he's in the air he needs to FEEL the pain. Uair can juggle him for days, utilt destroys him at low percents, bair puts him offstage, ac dair works amazingly on him if you can land it, jab to "get out of jail free".

Try and make sure that he's guessing what you're next option is rather than letting him figure you out. If you get flustered, run away and shoot some lasers and relax. They're free damage and he has no options against it from a large distance. Just think. Play a little slower, and punish his options whenever he tries to do something.

As far as DI out of grabs, I always dthrow at low percents and then, depending on their DI do uair, bair, or fair. If they DI in, uair. If they don't DI or DI up, fair, if they DI out bair. It's a guessing game and you might not get it anyways, but if he DI's out (and he does if I remember) do RAR bair it SHOULD hit and if he air dodges do some utilts. Uthrow is also good since Fox's advantage is so good and Ike's landing options aren't the best.

Just relax and start paying attention. Bait out his options by feinting your own. A lot of this MU is who can get stage control first. Both are able to cover the others landings pretty well and both can do good damage off of a hit. Just remember you're Fox: you're fast enough to get in and out to punish an unsafe option.

 

[BrickBot]

Lol that was a bad air dodge into a platform. I should have known better once he didn't jump. Should've just risked the fair since it wouldn't have killed me.

Let me give you a quick breakdown on how Ike's play and that is what you will need to understand first:

Ike's LOVE grab. And for good reason, it's fast, his pivot grab is large, and he can not only rack damage but on fastfallers (ie Fox) he can actually kill from uthrow > fair around 80% near the ledge. It's true.

They will also be hopping around a lot throwing out nair, bair, and fair. All of these ac out of a short hop and you need to be prepared for this. It's pretty common for them to do a retreating nair to grab when you try to punish the landing lag, of which there is very little.

His jab is fast. I don't know what frame exactly, but it's fast and it's good. They'll cover their mistakes a lot with this.

also watch for bair OoS at kill percents.

Now, for your friend in particular, I did NOT play optimally against him. At all. I went in hard (as I always do) and got punished hard, but I almost took game 2 and if I had I think I could have won game 3 #johns

You're going to want to play bait-and-punish as well. Ike wants to run around and jump, baiting you into committing to an unsafe option and then punish you for it hard. Run in, run out, jump a bit, throw out some lasers and the second you see him commit to an action take note. When you ran up did he try to nair into you? Figure that out. When you manage to find what he likes to do you can bait it out and then punish. It's tough but it can be done! Every time you get a hit it NEEDS to convert into AT LEAST 15%+. His damage output is so much greater than ours on a per-hit basis that being able to punish him once and do a lot of percent + possible stage control is essential. His landing options are very alright and our advantage is so good that if he's in the air he needs to FEEL the pain. Uair can juggle him for days, utilt destroys him at low percents, bair puts him offstage, ac dair works amazingly on him if you can land it, jab to "get out of jail free".

Try and make sure that he's guessing what you're next option is rather than letting him figure you out. If you get flustered, run away and shoot some lasers and relax. They're free damage and he has no options against it from a large distance. Just think. Play a little slower, and punish his options whenever he tries to do something.

As far as DI out of grabs, I always dthrow at low percents and then, depending on their DI do uair, bair, or fair. If they DI in, uair. If they don't DI or DI up, fair, if they DI out bair. It's a guessing game and you might not get it anyways, but if he DI's out (and he does if I remember) do RAR bair it SHOULD hit and if he air dodges do some utilts. Uthrow is also good since Fox's advantage is so good and Ike's landing options aren't the best.

Just relax and start paying attention. Bait out his options by feinting your own. A lot of this MU is who can get stage control first. Both are able to cover the others landings pretty well and both can do good damage off of a hit. Just remember you're Fox: you're fast enough to get in and out to punish an unsafe option.

Thank you soooo much for this.

 

[Kanunuu]

Here's where stage positioning becomes a big factor. If you find your opponent retreating with aerials, just run up and shield. Force them into a corner, because realistically there is nothing you can do to punish retreating aerials with a huge amount of range like ike. Limit their options of approach, and be careful when committing to an option like dash attack or roll in. If you try to laser camp them, you will back yourself into a corner and when you get hit offstage you'll likely lose a stock. Fox can be suffocating when he gets in, and against a slow (frame data wise) character like ike, it's important to know when you are disadvantaged, and to not challenge everything. Try and stuff him before his approach, as both cloud and ike have slow start up. This becomes easier when they are cornered and from there, it is up to you to outplay and stuff him. If they approach you through the air you can try and walk backwards and hit them after they land with an aerial, or you can run up to where they land and shield --> shield grab. My best advice is to forget completely about lasers. They are pretty much useless for everything but extending a combo. The amount of damage you'll get from lasers is nothing compared to the amount you can potentially get punished for. Practice consciously gaining stage control and suffocating your opponents options just remember that you are otherwise inherently disadvantaged against a sword character.

 

[BradLeeTee]

Don't know if you're willing to invest your time into learning bidou but I can tell you from experience it really helps against these types of players. Being able to throw out perfect pivot lasers and immediately punish attacks with a shield drop perfect pivot UTilt will allow you to rack up damage alot easier. Thing is dash attack at low %s leaves them in a 50/50 scenario but UTilt true combos into almost any aerial and if you can capitalize a shielded FTilt into 40% of damage then you shouldnt have a problem winning against a bait and punish player. And about the spot dodge thing, youll just have to pay attention to when he spot dodges. Does he spot dodge after missing a smash attack, after you roll behind him, after he gets up from ledge? If you can pick up on these things you can, if you're feeling confident, use firefox since it's a lasting hitbox and does a whole 28% or just run up shield then grab which would be a much safer option to start off with. As for approaching a full hop air dodge into a BAir can sometimes work if they throw out an attack as soon as you approach them, you can always try doing one fox trot towards them if you're well spaced then wait for them to throw something out and punish and also as long as you don't overuse it running up then rolling behind them has worked alot for me as well.

 

[BrickBot]

Here's where stage positioning becomes a big factor. If you find your opponent retreating with aerials, just run up and shield. Force them into a corner, because realistically there is nothing you can do to punish retreating aerials with a huge amount of range like ike. Limit their options of approach, and be careful when committing to an option like dash attack or roll in. If you try to laser camp them, you will back yourself into a corner and when you get hit offstage you'll likely lose a stock. Fox can be suffocating when he gets in, and against a slow (frame data wise) character like ike, it's important to know when you are disadvantaged, and to not challenge everything. Try and stuff him before his approach, as both cloud and ike have slow start up. This becomes easier when they are cornered and from there, it is up to you to outplay and stuff him. If they approach you through the air you can try and walk backwards and hit them after they land with an aerial, or you can run up to where they land and shield --> shield grab. My best advice is to forget completely about lasers. They are pretty much useless for everything but extending a combo. The amount of damage you'll get from lasers is nothing compared to the amount you can potentially get punished for. Practice consciously gaining stage control and suffocating your opponents options just remember that you are otherwise inherently disadvantaged against a sword character.

Thank you. I started using the stuff in this thread and I am already seeing improvements.

Don't know if you're willing to invest your time into learning bidou but I can tell you from experience it really helps against these types of players. Being able to throw out perfect pivot lasers and immediately punish attacks with a shield drop perfect pivot UTilt will allow you to rack up damage alot easier. Thing is dash attack at low %s leaves them in a 50/50 scenario but UTilt true combos into almost any aerial and if you can capitalize a shielded FTilt into 40% of damage then you shouldnt have a problem winning against a bait and punish player. And about the spot dodge thing, youll just have to pay attention to when he spot dodges. Does he spot dodge after missing a smash attack, after you roll behind him, after he gets up from ledge? If you can pick up on these things you can, if you're feeling confident, use firefox since it's a lasting hitbox and does a whole 28% or just run up shield then grab which would be a much safer option to start off with. As for approaching a full hop air dodge into a BAir can sometimes work if they throw out an attack as soon as you approach them, you can always try doing one fox trot towards them if you're well spaced then wait for them to throw something out and punish and also as long as you don't overuse it running up then rolling behind them has worked alot for me as well.

Although bidou is definitely looking sweeter and sweeter, I'm not about to change my controls just yet. I can perfect pivot somewhat consistently, and though I can't seem to get extended dash dancing right, I don't think I should make a change quite as huge as bidou.