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How do I approach in neutral?
- Thread starter jhunter_d
- Start date
As always, it depends on the matchup. Floatier characters are hard to combo. Plus there is also the question of whether you should even approach at all and try to counter opponent approaches instead with good spacing. Most of Docs combo game is based on chaingrabs.
Typically, SH nair and SH uair are the best approaches. Uair is better for combos due to lower knockback. Pills can be used to help you get grabs by either getting them to shield, jump so you can approach and possibly get a grab, or if a pill hits them you can usually get a grab during hitstun if you're close. (Full hop -> pill -> waveland towards opponent).
Typically, SH nair and SH uair are the best approaches. Uair is better for combos due to lower knockback. Pills can be used to help you get grabs by either getting them to shield, jump so you can approach and possibly get a grab, or if a pill hits them you can usually get a grab during hitstun if you're close. (Full hop -> pill -> waveland towards opponent).
It's quite handy because even if they shield you'll usually just go through their shield and wind up behind them.
I highly recommend watching Shroomed's videos, he has good spacing, combos and chaingrabs.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,346
Depending upon the character pills can be difficult to punish, yes. While you hit someone you do not have to immediate try to follow-up in stun. (I am not sure the lag on doc's pills from your own lag allows this anyway). They got hit, and might not know what you will do next.
However, you might have hit them in the air, or on the ground, or hit a shield. Either way, they will react to a pill and you can decide how to follow-up depending upon their situation when they interact with the pill.
In shield, you usually have a bit more room to say wait with a DD and react to any defensive option or attack out of shield. Remember though that without ever actually attacking from this DD on occasion you lose all threat of the DD which is the ability to attack any moment with each dash forward. You could easily try to space a Nair on shield. If they attempted to do anything out of shield they get hit, but you are out of range of retaliation. This might get a grab attempt out which you can punish maybe.
The main point is you are rarely ever truly in neutral and usually this situation changes very quickly. Think about some scenarios and think of some good responses to them. It helps when you see that situation again.
However, you might have hit them in the air, or on the ground, or hit a shield. Either way, they will react to a pill and you can decide how to follow-up depending upon their situation when they interact with the pill.
In shield, you usually have a bit more room to say wait with a DD and react to any defensive option or attack out of shield. Remember though that without ever actually attacking from this DD on occasion you lose all threat of the DD which is the ability to attack any moment with each dash forward. You could easily try to space a Nair on shield. If they attempted to do anything out of shield they get hit, but you are out of range of retaliation. This might get a grab attempt out which you can punish maybe.
The main point is you are rarely ever truly in neutral and usually this situation changes very quickly. Think about some scenarios and think of some good responses to them. It helps when you see that situation again.
If a pill hits, I'd say you don't have to do anything else for a while 
But seriously, Pills are amazing, and if there's one thing Shroomed can do to improve his game, it's to use pills more effectively. If you watch him play against a fast character, you can see he has a hard time going in, and he doesn't use his pills very often (possibly because he feels like he can't).
There is an extremely safe technique, however, that you never see anyone use: It's to dash away, hop (short or full) and turn-around B a pill: it puts a pill precisely where you were, and gets you outta there! So if your oppnent tries to rush you, they're going to have to deal with the pill. If you full-hopped, you can waveland away and toss out another pill, or grab the ledge and waveland back in for a counterattack.
Practice doing this out of a dash-dances or wavedashes, and you will be amazed at how mobile Doc (and Mario) will look.
Surprisingly, stages with platforms seem to magnify this technique's effectiveness. From my experience, there is very little your opponent can really do to counter the technique but throw out projectiles, which you can cape!
If your opponents start swatting away the pills, try wavedashing in with a well-spaced f-tilt to remind them you're capable of catching them off-guard.
Overall, use this technique to fluster your opponent and pressure them into an approach. At that point, you can do what Doc does best.
It's just one more thing that makes Doc so much fun to use.
But seriously, Pills are amazing, and if there's one thing Shroomed can do to improve his game, it's to use pills more effectively. If you watch him play against a fast character, you can see he has a hard time going in, and he doesn't use his pills very often (possibly because he feels like he can't).
There is an extremely safe technique, however, that you never see anyone use: It's to dash away, hop (short or full) and turn-around B a pill: it puts a pill precisely where you were, and gets you outta there! So if your oppnent tries to rush you, they're going to have to deal with the pill. If you full-hopped, you can waveland away and toss out another pill, or grab the ledge and waveland back in for a counterattack.
Practice doing this out of a dash-dances or wavedashes, and you will be amazed at how mobile Doc (and Mario) will look.
Surprisingly, stages with platforms seem to magnify this technique's effectiveness. From my experience, there is very little your opponent can really do to counter the technique but throw out projectiles, which you can cape!
If your opponents start swatting away the pills, try wavedashing in with a well-spaced f-tilt to remind them you're capable of catching them off-guard.
Overall, use this technique to fluster your opponent and pressure them into an approach. At that point, you can do what Doc does best.
It's just one more thing that makes Doc so much fun to use.
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pills are good and that tech you suggested is good but not THAT amazing since you can't really follow up on the pill and you give up stage control.
but I agree, shroomed's pill game can def be better (velocity's pill game is pretty amazing). But shroomeds footsies game ****s on any other doc so he doesn't really have to rely on pills.
doc's approach game isn't that great. his best approach options are easily:
doc doesn't really have any other good approach options.
sh nair should mostly be used as a read, i.e.:
FH pill is a decent approach, but it takes a lot of time and has quite a bit of lag. so you have to be careful about when you use it. usually you should go for it when you know you can do it safely. (as opposed to sh uair which can be spammed a lot easier because it's so quick)
but I agree, shroomed's pill game can def be better (velocity's pill game is pretty amazing). But shroomeds footsies game ****s on any other doc so he doesn't really have to rely on pills.
doc's approach game isn't that great. his best approach options are easily:
- sh uair! quick, safe, decent range, autocancels, can be used to cross up, good for comboing. this honestly should be the go to. you can see that shroomed uses it a lot.
- wavedash sh bair same as uair just facing backwards, more range and last longer, and can waveland out of it. but the backwards wavedash kinda gives away that you might go for it
- wd forward jab/tilt is ok for a quick offensive poke, so kind of an approach but kind of not
doc doesn't really have any other good approach options.
sh nair should mostly be used as a read, i.e.:
- predict that they're going to spotdodge your approach so you hit with the late nair
- overshoot the nair to predict their dash away (also hits with the late hit)
FH pill is a decent approach, but it takes a lot of time and has quite a bit of lag. so you have to be careful about when you use it. usually you should go for it when you know you can do it safely. (as opposed to sh uair which can be spammed a lot easier because it's so quick)
The Young Izzy Iz
Smash Apprentice
My knowledge of Doc is limited but what's the viability of wavedash -> D-Smash? You see Ice Climbers abuse it and it seems like it might be decent even if you just get wavedash -> CC their hit -> D-Smash?