Hitbox Interaction: Ground vs. Ground (*)

[Studstill]

(*) = Special case involving B moves and invincibility
Alternate Titles:
Mixa writes the most lovely ignored posts, or
So does this mean that hitbox interaction on the ground isn't as simple as we thought or

Huh, I had the wrong idea about how priority works in the case of a move dealing 9% or more than its countermove.
I thought that when the winning move's hitbox touches the losing move's hitbox, it would work as if the countermove wasn't there to begin with. I had that idea because pretty much all the time a move wins over another, the following hitbox is the same as the previous one, but as we can see with Luigi, the firepunch didn't connect, the 2nd hitbox frame did.

THE CLANK FRAME




This is so weird:

Mario is on the right. It seems that by moving the characters closer to each other inch by inch, eventually Mario's up-B would outrange Luigi's: Mario's hitbox is almost connecting to Luigi's head, and Luigi's hitbox is far from touching Mario.
So does this mean that hitbox interaction on the ground isn't as simple as we thought or

Hypothetically:
That pic is the frame(?) where Luigi`s head is invincible (not intangible).
Mario`s forward hitbox does indeed 'hit' Luigi`s head; rendering it null, having struck an invincible frame.
Luigi`s hitbox might simply then just be contacting Mario, after the 4 invincible frames.

I`m new to the technical data, and perhaps I`m misunderstanding:
How is invincible/intangible/hitbox/hurtbox data gathered? From the having the hitbox codes activated?
And assigning the 'move' data to the various hitbox parts of the move? (damage, knockback(b/s), etc.)
If so then this is accurate for judging the effects of a hit, as @ Madao and others have proved, but fails to cover the interactions of hitboxes with hitboxes, especially in the case of special moves.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

2 moves starting at the same time, the one that only does 1% wins? gonna have to say one of those moves clearly has priority over the other

I have no idea why luigi wins. But as a good smash PLAYER , I don't really care what the mechanics are. All I need to know is luigi up b has PRIORITY over mario up b. I would wager that luigi gets in the air first, and since air moves have PRIORITY over ground moves, that air hitbox wins

 

[Sangoku]

Hypothetically:
That pic is the frame(?) where Luigi`s head is invincible (not intangible).

I don't use the invincible vs intangible nomenclature, but blue invincible frames mean intangible, ie can't be touched at all.

Mario`s forward hitbox does indeed 'hit' Luigi`s head; rendering it null, having struck an invincible frame.

As it is not a green invincible frame (ie it is a blue one, therefore can't be touched at all), why would it render it null? It won't. Take the example of a regular get up which also has blue invincible frames. One char does the regular get up and gets f-smashed by a pikachu at the same time (since it lasts long): at the beginning of the getup, nothing will happen (as the character is intangible), then once the blue frames wear off, the character will get hit by the f-smash (assuming the hitbox is still out).

Luigi`s hitbox might simply then just be contacting Mario, after the 4 invincible frames.

No, it hits on the first frame of the attack.

What actually happens is that Mario doesn't get the blue invincible frame, while Luigi gets it. And this ONLY IF Luigi inputs his Up B. If Luigi does nothing, Mario has his blue frames. So for some reason the game changes the hurtbox of Mario if Luigi inputs Up B at the same time. There seems to be some kind of weird priority property when two blue frames collide. For example, if Luigi's Up B hits Jiggly's Down B, Luigi doesn't get a blue frame (however, the moves clank).

And this is where things get seriously ****ed up: Fox is in blue with hitbox out, Luigi is yellow with hitbox out. Nothing happens, then Fox's blue finishes and gets hit by Luigi.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

So what you are saying is, luigi`s invincibility frames are given Priority over mario's invincibility frames? neato

 

[Madao]

I`m new to the technical data, and perhaps I`m misunderstanding:
How is invincible/intangible/hitbox/hurtbox data gathered? From the having the hitbox codes activated?
And assigning the 'move' data to the various hitbox parts of the move? (damage, knockback(b/s), etc.)
If so then this is accurate for judging the effects of a hit, as @ Madao and others have proved, but fails to cover the interactions of hitboxes with hitboxes, especially in the case of special moves.

Just read Toomai's chart already..............

What actually happens is that Mario doesn't get the blue invincible frame, while Luigi gets it. And this ONLY IF Luigi inputs his Up B. If Luigi does nothing, Mario has his blue frames. So for some reason the game changes the hurtbox of Mario if Luigi inputs Up B at the same time. There seems to be some kind of weird priority property when two blue frames collide. For example, if Luigi's Up B hits Jiggly's Down B, Luigi doesn't get a blue frame (however, the moves clank).

And this is where things get seriously ****ed up: Fox is in blue with hitbox out, Luigi is yellow with hitbox out. Nothing happens, then Fox's blue finishes and gets hit by Luigi.

Interesting read.

Judging by the video, it looks like hitlag only affects the person getting attacked while they are invincible.

 

[Studstill]

Thank you sangoku, again.
I know invincibility is janky. There are hitbox properties we are unaware of. I don`t like the intangible/invinc nomenclature either.
I will never accept priority. It refers to two things happening, and one getting to go first, then the other, and that isn`t accurate.
It refers to classes of moves, or hitboxes, and that isn`t accurate, since moves have dmultiple different hitboxes, and tit is all dependemt om timing an location rather than what move it actually is.
I`ll give the 20 to whoever figures out invincibility frames, re the above Sangoku raised issues. Also, I would like some help with frame by frame advancement, thanks!
What emu are you guys on, I`m using FD now for hitboxes (recently) but it seems janky-ish on comparison.

 

[Fireblaster]

I don`t like the intangible/invinc nomenclature

I`ll give the 20 to whoever figures out invincibility frames, re the above Sangoku raised issues. Also, I would like some help with frame by frame advancement, thanks!

Jigglypuff's Rest and Fox's shine have no clank animations. Therefore, even when a move has enough PRIORITY and strength to make shine and rest clank, those moves will still finish their animations. Jigglypuff's rest is strong enough to match luigi's upB and make him clank that move. Fox's shine is a pretty weak hit so while luigi won't clank, the shine "clanks" and keeps going as if nothing happened. Then the next frame luigi hits fox for 1% with the next hitbox in the move.

Sangoku is wrong. There is no special property that has to do with blue hitboxes overlapping. when mario and luigi both do their upB, mario never gets his first blue hitbox in the first place. This is because both hitboxes come out on frame 2, but since the difference between luigi and mario's initial hitbox damage is way more than 10%, luigi's initial upB hitbox has more PRIORITY and immediately cancels out mario's upB. Mario's upB doesn't even get a chance to throw its hitbox out because the move immediately enters its clanking state on frame 2. Mario not getting blue hitboxes is just a side effect of his upB getting cancelled.

DAMN SON IT LOOKS LIKE STUDSTILL OWES ME $40 NOW.

 

[Sangoku]

Jigglypuff's Rest and Fox's shine have no clank animations. Therefore, even when a move has enough PRIORITY and strength to make shine and rest clank, those moves will still finish their animations. Jigglypuff's rest is strong enough to match luigi's upB and make him clank that move. Fox's shine is a pretty weak hit so while luigi won't clank, the shine "clanks" and keeps going as if nothing happened. Then the next frame luigi hits fox for 1% with the next hitbox in the move.
Sangoku is wrong. There is no special property that has to do with blue hitboxes overlapping. when mario and luigi both do their upB, mario never gets his first blue hitbox in the first place. This is because both hitboxes come out on frame 2, but since the difference between luigi and mario's initial hitbox damage is way more than 10%, luigi's initial upB hitbox has more PRIORITY and immediately cancels out mario's upB. Mario's upB doesn't even get a chance to throw its hitbox out because the move immediately enters its clanking state on frame 2. Mario not getting blue hitboxes is just a side effect of his upB getting cancelled.

This all makes sense, thanks. I was confused by Mario's Up B because I thought Luigi's hitbox was Mario's. So I thought we had Mario with his hitbox, but without blue frame, whereas, as you said, Mario's Up B isn't out at all.

 

[mixa]

By the way, the info in my post in the OP regarding % difference is wrong. It's odd because I remember retesting that when Boom made his post. It's actually 10% or higher, 9% and below causes a clank.