Here's a fun discussion topic. WHEN TO PRESS VS. WHEN TO CAMP

[Psyflame]

Alright, so it appears to me (though I've been wrong before, and I don't spend as much time here as I should so don't quote me) that a number of new players to Olimar have issues with characters who can either:

A. Beat Olimar's camping abilities (shieldgrabs, spacing, baiting punishable moves, etc. The general camping stuff for most characters, plus Oli's unique abilities like Over-B.)

or

B. Out-press Olimar (that is to say that they might try to use Oli's air game against a dedicated aerialist and be consistently beaten, and wonder why.)

So, what's the solution? Obviously, it's to know how to do both.

But as many will attest, the trick is in knowing when to apply each one. So here's one for you Olimar forerunners (Echo, I'm looking at you!) and, equally, for those of you just picking up the good Captain.

Which matchups cause you to press, and which cause you to camp? For example as soon as you see Pit enter the stage you know you won't be able to out-camp him.

New players: if you experience this issue, here is somewhere to seek guidance

Veterans: show us ya moves!



Now, for my own contribution:

Any spamming character generally cannot be beaten by Over-B and clever dodging. You need to press as soon as possible, lest you get in an unwinnable projectile war (with characters like Pit and Wolf who can punish blind rushes very easily, this is a must - keep them pressured and unable to strategize.)

Meta-Knight is by far the hardest matchup with Olimar that I have seen (possibly because I've been playing one Clouderz on Friendfinder - if you're reading this your MK is great.) The reason for this is that MK is difficult to punish via shieldgrabs, etc. and difficult to pressure because of his speed. I'm not aware of any surefire way to resolve this particular matchup. Is it a case of pressure or camping?

Post your own matchups, thoughts, ideas, flames - whatever comes to mind.

 

[Ultimatum479]

I don't think there's a good way to answer that question because MK lends himself to multiple styles of play. I know some MK players who can be out-camped and others who require aggressive strategies to defeat.

Pit, though, yeah, he has to camp against Olimar or he gets pwnt; he's just pitifully easy to punish when he tries to rush Oli.

Good thread. ^_^

 

[Ultimatum479]

EDIT: Gah, double-post via Quick Reply for the lose. Sorry.

 

[Pink4Life]

agreed that Aggrasive Metas are by far the most difficult match-up

Meta has near no lag in between attacks, and his edge guarding capabilities are insane. The only advantage OLI has is mind games. Most of OLI's attacks dont out prioritize Metas, IMO. And shield grabbing inbetween Metas attacks takes too long, and can get punished easily.
This also goes for Sidestepping (ir wtv you call it). You cant do it, too much lag. So how do you beat Meta?

Technically, its impossible, but Meta has a hard time getting to the ground. Even with air dodging and his aerials. Camping him with constant U-smashes seemed to work in my matches.

Another problem with a good MEta is the use of Mach Tornado (Neutral b) as a recovery method. It works. We cant atack him, grabbing is ineffective. And predicting where the Meta will land is difficult. Near impossible. It seems Meta can end Mach tornado whenever he wants, so being able to predict when he'll stop is impossible, or extremely hard. some one please make a MK only Strat, as IMO, Meta is the HARDEST match-up for any Oli character

 

[TrueRedemption]

So I have practice to get to in 20 minutes, so this won't be a typical True post, but wanna through out a point to start off this discussion. Not that MK talk isn't a good thing, but the camp/pressure discussion is also a really really great one for olimar in general any match up and i don't want it to get lost/forgotten.

Latched pikmin don't attack as many times the higher your opponents percentage. This isn't a stale move effect as much as a common trait for latch, from what i've seen without direct testing. We all know this, or if you don't you now do. What I'm saying is a latched white pikmin, while never a bad thing, is not nearly as good a thing when you opponent is at 200% as it is when they are at 12%. At 12% your opponent will have to respond much more seriously to the pikmin because without any response the pikmin will stay latched for much longer than it will at 200%. I'm not saying I ever expect a white pikmin to do 36 damage on any opponent with a pulse and i'm not comparing 42% to 6% at drastically different percentages, but when rolling around or moving or creating spacing or shielding all the things we do for protection spacing looking for an opening approaching, few of these also offer the ability to remove a latched pikmin. So sure your opponent won't take damage if he has his shield up when the pikmin is about to head butt, but at 12% he won't fall off after trying once or twice the way he will at 200%. So, discussion point one, latch/camp when your opponent is at low percents, pressure when your opponent is at high/KO percents.

Point two, then, reflects your own percents. With the huge boost to DI, this isn't as big of a point, but still valid. Olimar has range, and in general the further the range of a move, the less damage/knock back. So when you are at high percents, avoid getting KOed by pushing a camping style match. Taking wolf's laser at 150% isn't going to make a big change. Trading damage when your at 150 and hes at 20, you throwing pikmin him shooting lasers, is a winning situation for you. Your not impossible to KO at 150%, but it'll be very difficult to KO him at 20%. If you each trade 50%, now your slightly more easy to KO at 200%, still just generally easy, but Hey! Now he is also able to be KOed at 70%. Its not a sure thing like your 200%, but it is MUCH much better than the 20% before. Stock matches are basically the only competative format. You win by surviving. Pressure when you can at low % if its your advantage, but once you start getting higher, survive, and try and hurt him without actually losing your stock. This isn't as great an idea if your both at high percents, but if you can catch him in a camping game when hes at low percent and your at high percent, your controlling the match and putting it at a favorable pace for your current condition.

Discuss


-True

 

[Psyflame]

An excellent post from True! Agreed, situational pressing & camping is a key element of Smash strategy and general, and Olimar benefits particularly from its mastery.

Another idea I was thinking about... if your opponent is aware of the Brawl metagame in general and will know when you want to press or camp, would it work as a mindgame to suddenly pressure an opponent who was complacent in the knowledge that you'd back off? Likewise, could you keep them on their toes while camping by making them constantly think you were about to advance? Some things to think about at higher level play.

 

[asob4]

i've been having difficulties with lucario lately
he's quite tricky. he can camp somewhat effectively, good grab range, good smash range, and all his aerials out-prioritize most of oli's. what my friend has been doing is grabbing, throwing off the stage, bair/fair a few times til i use my double jump, then edge hog. as you can assume it gets quite annoying. i don't mind really but lucario has been bothersome. air dodging only goes so far.
camping against him doesn't work that well either, as he just gets stronger with more damage. so once he has enough damage he presses me.
so, my question is, what is the best way to take on a lucario?

 

[Psyflame]

For his grabs, try shorthop airdodging past him and punishing the grab. When getting back on the stage, clever airdodging or good spacing on your aerials (uair comes to mind) can knock him away enough for you to get on stage. If possible, fastfall and use a fair to cover your up B.

 

[hikikimori]

wow, i just like to give proper kudos to the OP, as this is by far the best topic i've seen posted on this forum.

i recently participated in a small tournament at the lan center i go to on occasion and was beaten by a lucario. during the fight i personally went through the questions posted by this thread, i had to find the balance of pressuring and camping.

what i found that i did was to start the match off with pressure, which helped for my first round of play because the opponent had never played me 1v1 and i dont' think he really was expecting me to rush in bawls out like that. as soon the opponent began to see my style of play, i had to revert back to a more conservative camping strategy.

I think what i'm getting at is that throughout the match there will be moments where you need to adjust your strategy to between the two, i dont' think that simply using one method for each match up would be an effective use of the character.

my two cents, and also keep in mind i did lose that match. . .

 

[TrueRedemption]

Hikikimori brings up another interesting point I'd like to touch on. Knowing your strength and knowing your opponent should play factor to this decision. Without any doubt match ups and meta game will evolve to dictate to some degree the play style. For instance, in an interesting match with DSF online against his snake, he explained to me that in that particular matchup the importance of keeping pressure on snake. Ironically i had subconsciously done this, the second match being much closer due to my increased pressure, despite not knowingly doing it at the time. Until each opponent is completely broken down looking at every angle, which won't truly happen until a complete meta game is developed, this bit is still uncertain.

Still related, and also of note from Hikikimori's post is the match mentality to begin with. Whether your a no name noob or an acclaimed studied pro, doing what isn't expected will always cause your opponent a moment on their heels. The better the opponent the shorter this advantage may last, but its a start none the less, and is simply another level of mind games. Suddenly your aggressive, then just when your opponent has adjusted and expects/correctly reacts to aggressive play your suddenly defensive. Keeping him changing, confused, and reacting to your current style is the definition of controlling the pace of a match, and ability to do so bodes well for you winning the match. As your opponent gets used to you switching up play styles this tactic becomes less effective, but that is more the result of your opponent improving overall than the tactic being any worse.

Once again though, like my last post, same as being aware of and reacting to your opponent in the idea above, there is a flip side that reflects yourself. Know which style your best at, knowing your strengths is as important as knowing your opponents weaknesses. Sure ideally you play both or all style equally perfectly, but we are human, and you'll find in most everyone theres a somewhat large noticeable difference. So know yourself, it may be whichever is more natural, perhaps not though, you need to know which style you make the least amount of punishable mistakes as well as take best advantage of openings with. Once you know this you can build matches up around this, as stated above switching things up is a good idea, but if you also are considerably better playing pressure/aggressive, why not start that way, and switch to it as often as you can without giving up your control of pace or becoming predictable? Work on any and all styles that are effective, try and get them as even as possible, but certainly know what your best at.


-True