• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Help vs. a Friend

Dr. Hyde

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
715
Location
Sarasota, FL
Ok this is not general help vs. Zeldas.

My friend is being lame, in the sense that he is only able to beat me because he plays a style counter to mine.
I like to attack he likes to sit back and counter, so all these matches are of my terrible defensive style. I won't hesitate to say it's bad, cuase I'm offensive but once he switched he's going 3-3 and 4-3 with my Oli.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8bVb8E5xfLY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=I0amqwR2NVA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JpM9bLkjjf0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jvgksd3tZLI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sP2qdu1JgbA

You should watch the vids to get an idea of what I'm saying but if you don't here's the gist.

I throw and go for an air attack and he dodges and gets a free hit.
I get pushed back from an over spammed Forward Air and he started a magic wall with Forward smash, no joke, nothing get's past it unless he ****s up the timing, which I don't think is in the vid. The reason you'll see me spamming smashes is I don't know how to be defensive so I just throw out attacks. It works for everyone else it seems, look at Zelda.

I usually am spamming WAC but it's pointless if he's dodging like a little *****.

*****My newer vids*****

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UsIdqnzGPbo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6uVhySyFVM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RDuxSnlKB08
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wlvNFYXm1Vs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sP2qdu1JgbA
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
I looked at all the vids and i might have a solution. The main friend i play brawl with mains w/ zelda and sheik, so i have probably have just as much experience against her as u do. U do a lot of things great, but i don't want to get into those(sorry, :(). I'm just gonna say what i'd try to do against some of his (your friend, yes i know zelda is a girl :p) tactics. In giving u suggstions, i'm not saying i'm the best at this game and that i'm so much smarter than u so don't take it that way please. :)

1) he didn't grab u once among all those videos. this means u should shield grab A LOT more, this should change up his strategy a lot and it might make him feel uncomfortable w/ grabbing u. try it.

2) unlike against most other enemies, zelda's fair won't move u back when u shield as nearly as much as it normally does to other opponents. take advantage of this. be sure to shield grab this. your friend particulary uses this move once after she jumps, and falls at u and does it again. sometimes this catches u offguard and u get hit, or u just roll away. i recommend either spot dodging, or sg-ing him.

3) your friend spams her nair like crazy and i'm wondering why u don't punish it very much. whenever my friend SH a nair, i'll SH a fair about half the time so he won't spam it, and it should have priority.(i might just be getting my attack off before he does)

4) use your down throw a lot more. it's GREAT at starting combos. just don't use fair too often b/c HER fair is deadlier if she can get it off. try going beneath her w/ an upsmash most the time.

when playing defensively i suggest a few things. when she jumps at u try sg-ing more. i don't think u shield grab enough. if he does a nair instead of a fair, be sure she doesn't jump over u when u decide to shield against it. in this situation, just shield and roll immediately away from her, or else he'll be sure to follow up quickly w/ a dsmash which will get u if u stand still and shield(your shield will be down from the nair) or if u decide to roll towards her. Try to learn to anticipate whether she uses a fair or a nair, as your methods of countering them should be totally opposite from each other. It's still hard for me.

Don't roll towards her unless your in a very odd situation where it's best to do so. i saw countless times in your vids where u did this and she punished u for it with a fsmash or f-tilit. you're quicker than zelda, and u should be able to out maneuver her better.

your SHFair won't be the best choice for approaching b/c nayru's love (blue wall) counters that easily. When u approach her, try to get just enough distance in between the two of u for an fsmash with a white TO MISS. When you're that distance from her throw your purples so he'll either dodge and u can run-grab her, or he'll hit it and u can inch up and fsmash after he hits the pikmen. The reasons this usually works for me is that your distance from her is perfect for a thrown pikmen not to get bounced back at u by nayru's love, b/c no-one has that reactions time( unless u become to predictable), a SH aerial can't get behind u at that distance so u can shield grab, and her moves don't have the range to hit u unless she charges at u. (which u can shield grab mostly b/c he refuses to grab u)

in conclusion, i suggest playing a camping style against zelda, but when she approaches u, act like your becoming very aggresive, but really staying defensive(confusing?). this can confuse your opponent into attacking u giving u ample opportunity to counter.
 

TrueRedemption

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
278
Hey Dr. Hyde, great to see some video of you playing after seeing you around for a while, nice work =)

On to the task at hand though, it shows your a primarily offensive player, and heres a few things i noticed that can help your defensive style (which your right, its the best option to take against this zelda the way they are playing currently).

1) Punishing imperfect approaches: Its a somewhat precise timing, but one that can develop fairly easily with practice. What I mean by this is any time zelda attacks and doesn't actually connect with you, shes left herself open in some way. You need to work on recognizing the weak spots, how long the last, determining whether or not you can hit that spot in the time she's open, and finally/most importantly executing all of it. For instance, theres a specific timing to shield grabbing, Zelda loves that FAir spam, I'm not even so concerned with punishing the first one your opponent tends to do early in the SH, but the second is the actual threat to you. A number of times you blocked it, which is right, a shield is effective against nearly every move any character can do in the air. However sometimes you'd make a slight error and get hit, its ok, no ones perfect, you shielded pretty well. However, when you shielded, many times Zelda would land and do a quick DTilt that connected before you hit with a move. This is the area I'm talking about improving. Anytime you shield an aerial your almost guaranteed a hit (exceptions have a lot of shield stun/knockback). Once you shield the hit box, the player only has a few options: double jump, try to attack again (usually far too low since Olimar is short to begin with), air dodge, or simply land. Few opponents will double jump, however if they do and you notice this habit, its easily punishable as well as they are above you and without a second jump should you hit them off the stage. Attacking again doesn't get an actual hit box out soon enough to concern you, air dodging cannot stop what your doing, and landing is simply open time for you to attack someone right in front of you. The interesting part is this, all three of those are equivalent in that you can land an attack or at minimum regain spacing. Your move will simply connect with the opponent in the late attack and land situation, and interestingly in the air dodge situation there is always a frame the initial frame of landing that is vulnerable. So you just need to learn to connect with it =) To start off if zelda keeps getting that close to you on aerials, feel free to jab repeatedly/quickly, its got a fair hit box and you can just spam it to make sure you hit, doing so removes a lot of the timing requirement. You'll want to develop the sense of timing however to hit your opponent as they are low in the air/landing with other moves though, right now you seem a little late. In particular one shielded FAir after which you start a DSmash but Zelda hits first with a DTilt comes to mind as a perfect example of what i mean, you coulda started the DSmash earlier, or done a faster move (tilt or jab).

2) You get nervous as people approach, and you resort to your instincts. I can't think of a more natural reaction than doing what your comfortable with when you get pressured/nervous. The problem is your instinct tells you too attack, so you start moving towards zelda to attack, effectively walking in to her attacks! For instance, your FSmash has more range than her's. But how many times does she stop/land in front of you, you dash forward a step or two about to start a late grab or sh aerial only to be destroyed by a FSmash? If instead you conquered your nerves, stood your ground, and just through out a full length standing grab, or a FSmash, you would've hit her before she was even in range to hit you. Your effectively killing your own spacing game by running towards zelda right at the critical range/spacing moments. Olimar is built on his range, however all characters lose range when they are dashing, your options become limited, grabs are shorter, what you gain in forcing correct action out of your opponent by moving at them you lose in your options of attacks. So your effectively giving the Zelda both the advantage of forcing correct action and the advantage of your decreased range/options, no wonder your having a bit of trouble =P

Theres plenty of little things here and there I could mention, but part of that I believe is simply your play style, and may very well work fine once you make the two changes above. Don't try and over use WAC though, its much better to learn how to spot dodge/roll some of the times, though there were some nice ones you pulled off, remember to attack immediately after so that you aren't just hit again by another attack (WACed UAir on FD that results in you just getting DTilted as you both land ><) About the FSmash wall, you beat it once by 2 consecutive FSmashes of your own, the first canceled on Zelda's, the second hit before she did anything. Your range is longer, learn the range of the move so you can hit her before she can even hit you =) Latch should also work, not straight into her but SHed can land on her head, shouldn't be knocked off in that hit box, not certain on that though. Keep working on it, just throwing out attacks isn't really that far off, just gotta learn which attacks to use to make the best use of your spacing, and the timing so to connect as often as possible. I'm sure before long zelda will start rolling to avoid your longer range, thats another timing you can learn to hit or deal with in other ways, be aware of it when it starts and I'm sure you'll figure it out. Last little tip if you find yourself very close to zelda, or any character really but definitely someone with a couple quick moves but may very well dodge one of yours first, just start jabbing and keep it up, you'll hit them as they come back from the dodge. If instead you find them often shielding your attack then hitting you, just grab in that situation. Hope this helps,


-True
 

Dr. Hyde

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
715
Location
Sarasota, FL
Thanks guys I really appreciate the great advise from both of you. I'm definitely taking this defensive step in a direction, so thanks for making that direction the right one.

I'll post a vid before he played against my Olimar, where I was all Offensive. ahh good times.
 

Ultimatum479

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
167
Location
Delray Beach, Florida
A'right, I'm just gonna watch the vids in order and post my ideas here as I watch. This will be sorta stream-of-consciousness because I'm feeling lazy.

First vid: You're upsmashing too much while Zelda has low percentages. It's a viable kill move against her since she's not that heavy; don't make the move stale such that it loses killing power when you really wanna use it. Wow, she's spamming aerials and you keep jumping into 'em and getting pwnt. If you can't time a Fair properly to get past the Bair spam (which is to be expected considering the relative range of Zelda's Bair and Oli's Fair), you're better off sitting on the ground and using an Up-B to counter her when she jumps, or rolling behind her and Fsmashing as she lands. Considering your friend's constant aggression when the two of you are close, you should be dodging and shielding much better than you are; Zelda keeps attacking and you sit there shielding and taking several hits in a row. When you shield a ground hit, immediately grab from it; when you shield an air attack, Up-B to counter. You're being very predictable as you fall; try DI-zigzagging as you land and suddenly choosing a direction in the last second of falling to get away from her, or other mini-mindgames, or else you're gonna get yourself side-KOed as you fall -- yup, there you go. Wow, you pulled all your Pikmin as you spawned and she killed half of 'em with a Bair. If your Pikmin are separated from you and she's going for them, either Whistle to get 'em back or just use the opportunity to attack her while she's busy stupidly attacking your Pikmin instead of you. Heh, see, that Usmash shoulda killed her at 100% but you diminished its effectiveness by using it twice earlier. You keep falling into that Usmash; she doesn't slide that much when she does a dashing-Usmash in comparison to most characters, so you really should be able to DI to the side and air-dodge past it, but you're trying to air-dodge straight down past it, which isn't working. Gah, you died to a sweetspotted Bair at the end again; that Bair spam is really getting predictable by this point, so you should just be backing up and throwing Pikmin to punish him if he's gonna sit there and keep doing that, until he learns his lesson. Wow, does your friend EVER try throwing? You shielded the entire time during that match instead of dodging, yet he just sits there and keeps attacking. He needs to learn how to grab (and maybe he should B-stick if he's gonna be doing so many aerial Din's Fires).

Second vid: Jeez, Bair-spammed off the stage and then edgehogged. You really need to learn how to counter that Bair spam, huh? It's not easy to counter a quick Bair by a Zelda, but Bair _spam_ is different because it's predictable. You should be able to roll/dodge/powershield that or just jump backwards and hurl Pikmin at her until she realizes the futility of her useless charging. Huh, your friend didn't edgehog you that time when you were at 54%. Gah, sweetspotted Bair; that ****ed thing should be getting stale by this point with the rate at which you've walked into 'em. Do you do a Bthrow _every_ time you grab her? Try Dthrowing; it leads better into follow-up attacks such as Fairs or even just a standing Up-B if you're feeling lazy (like me). Plus, the Bthrow is a viable kill move with Blue Pikmin, so you don't wanna diminish its killing potential. Oh, I see your problem now! You ARE trying to throw Pikmin to counter the Bair, but she just kills them with the Bair itself. You have a few choices: time it right so that doesn't happen, aim it right so that doesn't happen (easiest with a Yellow Pikmin, which travels in an arc just over her leg and latches onto her head if you jump before you throw), or keep throwing, failing to get the Pikmin through, making him expect you're going to keep doing that, and suddenly mixing things up with one of my earlier suggestions for beating the Bair (standing Up-B, roll past and Fsmash, jump/air-dodge over and Dsmash, etc). I'll have to test, but a Purple Pikmin might outprioritize the Bair. Actually, the funny thing is that Zelda freezes for a bit (not as long as her target, but a bit) if she sweetspots a Bair. Throw a Pikmin at her attack and you might be able to take advantage of that time during which she's frozen. I'll have to test that out later. Gah, you're getting outprioritized by her other aerials too. Try Nairing; that's a surprisingly high-priority move in Olimar's arsenal. Ouch, edgehogged again for the win. You don't DI upwards enough to make it easier to reach land without tethering. DIing upwards should become instinct with Olimar.

Third vid: Got her off the edge nice and early there, but then let her back onto the edge with predictable aerials. Mix up your game; again, the Up-B is an amazingly under-used move. When people are trying to recover, they watch and wait for Olimar to jump and start using aerials to edgeguard, and they react to that, just as your friend did. The last thing they expect is for Olimar to sit there and suddenly do a standing Up-B in their faces. That would've knocked your friend away without a double-jump, forcing her to Up-B back, which isn't hard to edgeguard; you had a Purple Pikmin coming up next with which you could've knocked her away, and her next Up-B would've had to target the edge and would thus have been edgehoggable. There you go again, shielding the Din's Fire and then putting down your shield just as she hits you in the face with a standing attack, when you should've just grabbed her from the shield as she tried to approach after Din's Fire. Wow, your friend starts off with the Bairs JUST as you've spawned! I personally would let him land a few Bairs (getting in damage as I do so with latched Pikmin) so that the move gets stale and then start attacking; he wouldn't be able to get a Bair KO at that point (aside from a sweetspotted one), and he's very predictable when using his other moves, so those are easily shielded and dodged. Ugh, yeah, you used an Usmash when it couldn't've killed her, so then the second one you did failed to kill her even when it should've. When she was just behind you, you'd've been better off Dsmashing. You don't ALWAYS have to Usmash when running, you know; grabbing is probably the best thing you can do against, speciifcally, your friend, who tends to sit there and try to keep you away with close-range attacks when he sees you dashing, or you can stop your momentum by shielding and then do any move in Oli's arsenal, or you can even do a dash attack, since Oli's is surprisingly quick. Huh? Why'd you try to WAC that attack (and fail, thus ending up vertically-KOed)? You could've just air-dodged it. Why WAC when you can dodge? WACing is only useful if you wanna counter-attack more quickly than a dodge will allow; you were in no position to counter that attack even had you successfully WACed it.

Fourth vid: Good first stock. Good attacking in general; you timed your attacks properly to counter his attacks and dodges for once. Guess you were getting the hang of him by this point? Ouch, you tried to WAC the Usmash again, and then didn't DI properly. Jeez, there it goes again: you start throwing Pikmin and he just sits there attacking and killing 'em. That pattern happens so often, even at close range like here, and you need to just break that pattern by suddenly dashing in and grabbing. Haha, there we go: in three seconds, two of the things I'd mentioned previously just happened...You shield-grabbed him after a Din's Fire, and you attacked him while he sweetspot-Baired a Pikmin. ^_^ Yeah, you really need to mix up your dash game a bit more; I can't recall a time I've seen you approach via dashing when you weren't planning to Usmash.

Last vid: Jeez, your friend just sits there using Din's Fire and leaves himself completely open. It's hard to punish Din's Fire at range _after_ it's over, yes, but before the fireball reaches you, you should latch a Pikmin onto Zelda. Then she either has to cut it short and get the Pikmin off, or try to hit you (and you should shield anyway, making it futile) and take some damage. You either get some damage in or you get a chance to start approaching. *gasp* AEYR GRABBED HOLY ****. Anyway. Grr, you're spamming Usmashes again, not even while dashing anymore. I bet you're going to need it soon and it won't kill properly. You had a five-second battle of spot-dodging and rolling which you could've easily ended by throwing any Pikmin but White (so that it moves slowly enough that it will hit even if they roll) or by doing a dash-grab (which has enough range to hit even if they roll). You walked into your friend's Farore's Wind recovery even though he's recovered to that exact same point EVERY time except one; expect it, stand there and shield, then punish.

Sorry if that's overly critical (if you can understand any of it), but I didn't mention any of the good things you did, and there were plenty.

Anyway, basic summary, then: do things out of your shield, especially shield-grabbing, rather than just putting down the shield calmly and waiting to get smashed in the face...incorporate standing Up-Bs into your arsenal more often, as they're quite surprising for most people and they're a high-priority, long-range, easy method of cycling through your moves to allow others to recharge from the stale move effect...don't use Usmashes so often, even while dashing, because you're weakening its kill potential for when you need it (not to mention becoming predictable)...start grabbing more often (which ties into my point about increasing your dash-in options), and use Dthrows when you do so as to allow the Bthrow its killing potential if you get a blue and in order to set up combos...get a couple grab attacks in when you grab, since there's no reason not to do so and White Pikmin hurt like hell when they land grab attacks...and finally, for Aeyr-specific tactics, you need to learn Aeyr's patterns such as the Farore's Wind recovery spot, the tendency to alternate between purely offensive approaches (dash attacks and Bair spam) and extreme camp (Din's Fire spam and standing attack spam) without any in-between game (such as an approaching Din's Fire --> shield-dash --> smash), etc, so that you can shield/dodge his attacks more consistently and counter 'em...

Crap, parents, gotta go and this post is too long anyway. Have fun.
 

shrinkray21

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
724
Location
Brookings, SD
wow, I was gonna post here but I think you guys got a handle on the situation, plenty walls of text, i'll try and check these when I get some more free time...the blind helpful knowledge I give is take advantage of every mistake you can...I'll check back tonight!
 

Dr. Hyde

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
715
Location
Sarasota, FL
Thanks Ultimatum479- I did read most of the post, and I agree with it. I've vastly improved my game in the time that this thread was made. The new vids that come up if my friend will post them, show that I'm not being defensive at all and it shows me doing pretty **** well.

I also won a tournament today, with the sed skilz that paid teh bilz. And I thank everyone for their help.

*EDIT*
New vids up, but my friend didn't put up four really owning vids of me against him. but these aren't bad
I did change how I grabbed for the tournament. I completely lost my train of thought on what I took from the boards.

But I'm better and thanks, I really should have like 9 vids with 6 wins and three losses to show but oh well.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
from looking at the second set of videos:

1) i noticed something that it looked like u got worse at! I don't see why so many people ABUSE using the super armor frames of his whistle to take no knock back. This is something u use way too often (just like everyone else), and i, along w/ a small group olimar users, don't see it as a plus. it's a very unreliable move that keeps u damage, and, if your opponent messes up, u get to counter. As ultimatum said earlier: "WACing is only useful if you wanna counter-attack more quickly than a dodge will allow." In many places, a dodge would have worked better. it CAN be useful in very little circumstances to avoid death, but overall, a simple dodge will do the trick, then u can grab or smash, or whatever. Also, i tend to see ppl use the WAC to take the place of a shield-grab!!! GAH, WUT HAS OLIMAR COME TO!! sorry... anyways, Don't use it as much.

2) i saw a couple of times where u didn't shield zelda's recovery-to-smash. i'm assuming this isn't a recurring theme in your game play, or else, the Zelda would be using it as an approach :) (i saw on the zelda threads someone saying that i can be used as an effective approach, lol) When u do shield it, try to use your dsmash more than never, unless a different move will kill her right off the bat. Have you noticed that Zelda tends to use her downtilt immediately after the recovery? if u dsmash her, immediately after shielding. u may catch her trying to downtilt. her DI during your dsmash may result in her getting pushed off the edge more. see if this works better instead of an upsmash. Plus, if u use the upsmash, and it won't kill her, then you've justdegraded the move through DR.

3)This may not be new to you, but anyways-Generally speaking... the first thing that should come to mind when u see ***ZELDA*** jump when you're on the ground is whether she is close enough to jump over u with a nair, or not. if so, then you havn't done a good job spacing yourself from her. just work on that. if she isn't too close then go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back. (not literally) u should shield in this instance. her fair can't push u far enough from her in order to sg, a nair can't take your shield down enough to hurt u unless it's already diminished enough, and her range isn't good enough to fake a hit and attack w/ jabs or a tilt. i saw where u didn't shield and did an attack, but her fair had priority, and hurt u pretty badly. something else u could do is just meet her in the middle w/ a fair, but don't do this too much or she'll just expect it to happen and she'll start to attack sooner. for me, it's become a habit, and it makes the zelda i play with think twice about jumping at all. have i missed anything? tell me if i did. i don't wanna mislead you

good job bout the tourney. :)
 

Aeyr

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
109
Location
FSU Florida
Lmao I didn't know this thread even existed! XD
I'm gonna get some sort of video capture device so that we can actually get Better quality vids up than these...

...and reading these makes our recent games make a bit more sense Hyde XD. Though I learned a bit tooooo much from Kei in orlando I believe. XD

and to the guy who said I don't throw enough: Yes, I've noticed...before I was having some trouble trying to fit in throws into my game play but I think I've managed to add it in decently now.
 
Top Bottom