Help dealing with pressure and setting match pace?

[StickyIcky]

Hey guys so I've just come back from my second tournament. Lots of friendlies, loads of fun. Still getting my ass handed to me in bracket. Anyways something I've noticed is that when I play a lot of the guys there I tend to have A LOT more trouble dictating the pace of the match and keeping my cool as Marth. I think the biggest example of this is the kind of shield-pressure that Falco is able to put down on me, but I have noticed that it's the same fighting other characters as well.

This is something I haven't really run into with my training partner and so I am unsure of what my real defensive options are for the most part. I am aware that I am bad but I'm still playing to learn and am definitely improving. It seems to me though that during bracket especially I am left fighting an uphill battle on Marth unable to largely reset back in to neutral. Eventually I will become flustered and start throwing out attacks I know I shouldn't have in an effort to get the opponent off my back.

So, Marth community, what options do you use to keep aggressive opponents off your back and set things back into neutral again? Also, how can I better practice these with my training partner? He plays Falcon mostly, should I have him switch to a different character or what? Falcon just doesn't have the same kind of pressure and I can usually keep him shut out by waiting and baiting (which doesnt work so well on guys better than myself). Hoping to further improve my Marth game.

TL,DR : need help in my defensive game keeping opponents off and setting the pace of the match myself.

 

[FE_Hector]

Just a tip, maybe use the Edit button to insert a tl;dr.

Anyways, one thing that I would say is a really good option initially is to make your neutral game really really good. Now, a lot of people think that the neutral game is really easy as Marth, but he's got to work at it a good bit. If you DD near your opponent and they don't respect the DD because they know that you can't actually gain anything from it, they'll just ignore the fact that you're dash dancing at all. The first step is therefore to force them to respect the DD. There are a few ways to do this, all of which good players will assume you're capable of. Marth's mere presence threatens three basic things: dtilts, fairs, and grabs. Make sure they know you can get these out of DD if they don't do anything or mess up because Marth's the most pro baiter ever.

I'll post more later. I've gotta get to class o.o

 

[Link24a]

As for getting pressure off:


As for dictating the match:
Grab and do follow ups

 

[StickyIcky]

Definitely things to work on in my neutral game, and yeah I know a lot of people don't use the counter in matches but I have had some decent success breaking out of combos with it. At one point someone suggested throwing out sh nairs to keep off pressure, but it seems to me that if it doesn't hit I usually end up getting grabbed for it.

Anything you guys suggest for practicing dealing with pressure while playing solo? Obviously the best way to practice this stuff is to keep showing up at tournies but I feel should find a way to practice solo as well. Thanks for the help though.

 

[Link24a]

@ FE_Hector please stop reporting me kthx

 

[AirFair]

it's not just hector bro, it's getting annoying. First of all, counter isn't a crutch. It's easily punishable, and only works when you know Falco is going in on you, and even then, jab works better.

Stay calm if you can. When Falco is eating shields, try to time a buffered roll out of the way. Don't flail with aerials if you can help it, since you can get punished for whiffing.

 

[Link24a]

it's not just hector bro, it's getting annoying. First of all, counter isn't a crutch. It's easily punishable, and only works when you know Falco is going in on you, and even then, jab works better.

I'm not serious. I hope you know that.

Also how is it spam if I added actual information in it? Who reports things, anyways?

 

[StickyIcky]

Yeah I think my own mindset has a lot to do with it. I see myself start throwing out moves that I know I shouldn't be throwing out. I think maybe I just need more time playing at tournies and staying calm honestly. Been learning a lot there and we have some pretty good players. Slox is there often and it's fun as **** to watch him play Falcon, he is a beast.

How does the buffered roll work by the way, do you simply use the c-stick to input the roll?

 

[Link24a]

How does the buffered roll work by the way, do you simply use the c-stick to input the roll?

Hold it

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

Buffer your roll out, but don't always do it, be sure to recognize when you can shield grab their pressure (from them not doing it well), and when you can punish.

P.S I merged your posts so the TL:DR is in the OP.

 

[FE_Hector]

So, adding onto my previous post, as I've already detailed the neutral game in terms of DD... the neutral is way bigger than that. For example, if you have to wall out somebody, in place/fading SHFFL aerials can work as a pretty good wall. I'm fairly sure that these can go into a dtilt quickly if they think they're clever and can slip in between. Umm I'll add more as it comes to mind

 

[StickyIcky]

Awesome, all stuff I can definitely work on. And sorry about the extra post for the TL:DR, still pretty new to using the forums. ( I'm usually just a lurker hah )

 

[FE_Hector]

It's no problem at all. If you've got anything you ever need, just ask it somewhere here on the Marth boards. We're generally helpful. (Though we are sarcastic sometimes if we have absolutely no idea how to answer)

 

[-ACE-]

I'm not going to tell you that your neutral game needs to be good, lol. When I read the OP I see "I need help with neutral game". This is what the entire thread is about.

Have you seen this?

http://youtu.be/MH3o-FAFcNg

Movement is soooo important.

The foundation to a good neutral game is based on your knowledge of both the options of your opponent, and yourself, in any given situation. You have to know what is safe and what isn't. This is the essence of bait and punish.

Next comes zoning and stage control. You have to constantly adjust your position to promote advantageous situations for marth and avoid bad ones (ex: you generally never want to be above your opponent in neutral). It is also important not to give up valuable space on the stage, which increases the options of your opponent. Marth is capable of pressuring hard; aim to do this and keep it constant as you fight to avoid bad situations.

Spacing is very important for marth. There are many situations where the difference between a tipper hitbox and a non-tipper hitbox can make you drop a combo or get punished hard. You have to be very careful when they are at low% and tack on damage as safely as possible.

This is normally accomplished through tipper hitboxes and grabs via DD, ASDI/cc, or pivots. The faster and trickier your movement, the harder it will be for your opponent to perfectly space approaches, and more openings come your way. Check out PPU's video. You want your wavelands to be crisp and get used to fastfalling everything while in training for a while, it'll really help your neutral.

Abuse your fair (tipper at low%). Be selective with fsmash but don't let good opportunities go to waste. Tipper dtilt is super safe. Jab and and ftilt also can't be overlooked. Try not to make moves too soon and play as reaction-based as possible. And always consider reward potential when it comes to punishing (ex: spamming grab vs fox on FD is not as bad as it sounds: although true spam is never good, the tendency to grab more is justified by how lethal the grab can be).

And always pay close attention to DI. Minimize their combos without putting yourself unnecessarily far offstage.

/ramble

 

[FE_Hector]

I've watched that video before. Super useful info all around, especially regarding Marth's capabilities.

 

[StickyIcky]

Had not seen that video but that is some great stuff to practice. I have seen Ken's tutorial and the marth trials video. Always looking for good solo practice material as I'm currently in the stage of getting my movement/tech down. There's a lot of stuff that I can do solo or against my training partner that I seem to just flub in tournies. Practice makes perfect though I suppose. Will also continue to go to tournies if nothing else but to practice under pressure.

 

[FE_Hector]

Had not seen that video but that is some great stuff to practice. I have seen Ken's tutorial and the marth trials video. Always looking for good solo practice material as I'm currently in the stage of getting my movement/tech down. There's a lot of stuff that I can do solo or against my training partner that I seem to just flub in tournies. Practice makes perfect though I suppose. Will also continue to go to tournies if nothing else but to practice under pressure.

Talking about flubbing stuff in tourneys, it'll get better. I can WD and ledgedash left and right in practice, but when I do a tourney-style set vs. my bro I always seem to accidentally full hop instead of WD and flub ledgedashes. Implementation and not seizing up in the pressure of everything else you've gotta monitor in a true set is one of the really difficult things about this game at lower levels.

 

[Dandy_here]

Abuse Marth's range and mobility in neutral, dash dance with a purpose and keep adding pressure with fair and dtilt

 

[DeadPigeon]

You should understand marth's basic oos options: wavedash, roll, spotdodge, jump, grab, fair, dair, and upb (pretty sure those are all the good ones). Unless the falco messes up (or you find a good opening), wavedash, jump, grab, fair, dair, and upb have too much starting lag and will get you shined/daired etc. Usually the best thing to do is wait until you have an opportunity to roll or wait until they mess up and punish their mistake. Shield pressure is hard, there's almost always a way to escape and often there's a way to punish if the falco isn't on their game.

 

[vexoskeleton]

A lot of things I've found people at low level like myself do is shield horizontal aerial approaches especially with marth since his hitboxes beat out basically every other character in the games so they can't trade. Meaning when you fair in and they shield it they are probably gonna try to shield it the second time you fair in, so try to ff your jump when you are close and grab their shield or mix up some other way by wave landing away or dj'ing for instance. These are some simple things in neutrals that people get in the habit of constantly doing that they can easily change to improve their play.

 

[FE_Hector]

A lot of things I've found people at low level like myself do is shield horizontal aerial approaches especially with marth since his hitboxes beat out basically every other character in the games so they can't trade. Meaning when you fair in and they shield it they are probably gonna try to shield it the second time you fair in, so try to ff your jump when you are close and grab their shield or mix up some other way by wave landing away or dj'ing for instance. These are some simple things in neutrals that people get in the habit of constantly doing that they can easily change to improve their play.

A lot of lower-level people also think that fair and/or nair work as approaches. Fading or in place fairs can easily set up stuff, but as an approach you make a massive commitment. Dtilt and grabs are way better bets.

 

[-ACE-]

A lot of things I've found people at low level like myself do is shield horizontal aerial approaches especially with marth since his hitboxes beat out basically every other character in the games so they can't trade. Meaning when you fair in and they shield it they are probably gonna try to shield it the second time you fair in, so try to ff your jump when you are close and grab their shield or mix up some other way by wave landing away or dj'ing for instance. These are some simple things in neutrals that people get in the habit of constantly doing that they can easily change to improve their play.

Be careful, unless you space the fair just right you're susceptible to an ASDI shieldgrab and other oos options. A mixup you can try is spaced fair on their shield, dash away then back (dd) and grab (or fair if he jumps when you do this). Just make sure if you fair their shield that's it's at least a tipper if not retreating.

 

[FE_Hector]

Tomahawks to force them into shield for a grab could be a really useful mixup, too.

 

[-ACE-]

Tomahawks to force them into shield for a grab could be a really useful mixup, too.

Always. Usually they become more useful later on in the match/set once you've given him more of a reason to shield.

 

[vexoskeleton]

Be careful, unless you space the fair just right you're susceptible to an ASDI shieldgrab and other oos options. A mixup you can try is spaced fair on their shield, dash away then back (dd) and grab (or fair if he jumps when you do this). Just make sure if you fair their shield that's it's at least a tipper if not retreating.

I meant tomahawk when i said jump in on their shield. Not like fair their shield the second time

 

[-ACE-]

I meant tomahawk when i said jump in on their shield. Not like fair their shield the second time

That's very difficult in that scenario. If you want to tomahawk, you especially want to not aerial or grab when you whiff an aerial with no landing lag (ac or animation is finished).