Help against Sheik

[FE_Hector]

So, this is a tourney-style set I did against my bro's Sheik earlier. I understand how he plays Sheik, just really not how to fight Sheik as Falco. Any critique you can give me would be great. BTW I'm kinda a scrub Falco, so please, more general tips would be appreciated, too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3sT4VAbvOE&list=PLu4VZMkd4gK8Icmx7afeg34gj-74HOd5c

 

[redcometchar]

Two fast ones:
A) Too much dash attack
B) Do you play sm4sh with him? Because every time you approached him he rolled backwards. You can punish that on reaction here.

 

[OninO]

Phew, you guys both have a lot to work on at the most fundamental level. None of the advice below is specific to shiek, because shiek isn't your real problem.

Cut dash attack completely. It's clear that it's a bad habit of yours so you need to revoke it before you can bring it back in properly. Every time you want to dash attack, SHFFL a nair and shine, that should take you quite a ways.

You both roll too much. It looks like a Smash 4 game. Just stop shielding, in melee you can dash dance, use it! Try playing games where you don't shield at all, dash away instead. Learning not to shield un-necessarily is on important step in speeding up your gameplay. Stop rolling, it follows naturally from stop shielding so much, but if you must shield, learn your full range of options. Shield grab, shine out of shield, and wavedash out of shield are superior to roll in most situations.

If shiek likes to jump in neutral (to fair, as your brother likes to do a lot), laser it. Learn your short hop lasers, you don't use them often enough to control your brother's movement. Your brother noticeably freezes when he starts to get lasered, take advantage of it, spam the **** out of him.

Go work on your tech skill dude!

Edit: Sorry if that sounded harsh, it wasn't my intention. It's just that Melee is a game of options and without putting the work in you'll be playing with your hands tied behind your back. Limited options means limited things the opponent must consider which means you are a problem easily solved.

 

[redcometchar]

Its sounds a little harsh, but yeah. Don't even play another match with him until you can shffl.

 

[AudioSilver]

Sheik's Cactuar Dash into Foward Tilt is a very dangerous combo starter against Falco. (That's why any Falco player should try to avoid this setup, VIA something like Shine.)

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Do you play sm4sh with him? Because every time you approached him he rolled backwards. You can punish that on reaction here.

Depends on how close you are when it happens and what you're actually doing. You can also do that in Smash 4.

But yes, try preemptively shielding less, more than anything else. This doesn't just open more options in Melee, this will help you in other games too. Dash attacking is alright to interrupt stuff, but really not good at lower percents, and if you're not explicitly trying to interrupt someone's option, you have a lot of better approaches.

 

[redcometchar]

Depends on how close you are when it happens and what you're actually doing. You can also do that in Smash 4.

Except in melee the window is 5-10 times longer. It isn't as good and should be punished most of the time in neutral, which is not true for smash 4 rolls.
Anyway just roll less and make him roll less.

 

[OninO]

Sheik's Cactuar Dash into Foward Tilt is a very dangerous combo starter against Falco. (That's why any Falco player should try to avoid this setup, VIA something like Shine.)

Hey dude, I don't know what a Catuar Dash is, I doubt this guy does either. Here's PPU's tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NraGXDMuVw

OP, I don't think you need to worry too much about getting forward tilted out of a cactuar dash atm.

 

[1000g2g3g4g800999]

Except in melee the window is 5-10 times longer. It isn't as good and should be punished most of the time in neutral, which is not true for smash 4 rolls.
Anyway just roll less and make him roll less.

Gross exaggeration, Sheik's rolls in Melee last 31 frames and are intangible frames 4-19, her rolls in Smash 4 last 27 frames and are intangible frames 4-17. If you are outside jab range as Falco and I roll away from you as Sheik, assuming my roll doesn't get cut short by the size of the stage, you're not punishing it. If you jump and I roll to a position that doesn't leave me on top of you halfway through the roll, you're probably not getting much of a punish. It's extremely easy to cover a roll through you in either game with dash back grab/pivot grab or a bair if you aren't doing something already. Being able to cover both rolls and defend against potential OoS options (assuming they're even in shield)? Entirely different ballgame. If I time a roll through you as you're putting out any kind of attack but jab or shine and actually in range to hit me, you willl not punish it. I see professional players ranked MIOM top 100 do multiple consecutive rolls going unpunished, including as a way to escape respawn invincibility. Rolling isn't the awful option people say it is, but bad rolls will always be bad.

 

[redcometchar]

Wow didn't know the data was so close. Still not a good option to throw out as often as he did.

 

[FE_Hector]

Phew, you guys both have a lot to work on at the most fundamental level. None of the advice below is specific to shiek, because shiek isn't your real problem.

Cut dash attack completely. It's clear that it's a bad habit of yours so you need to revoke it before you can bring it back in properly. Every time you want to dash attack, SHFFL a nair and shine, that should take you quite a ways.

You both roll too much. It looks like a Smash 4 game. Just stop shielding, in melee you can dash dance, use it! Try playing games where you don't shield at all, dash away instead. Learning not to shield un-necessarily is on important step in speeding up your gameplay. Stop rolling, it follows naturally from stop shielding so much, but if you must shield, learn your full range of options. Shield grab, shine out of shield, and wavedash out of shield are superior to roll in most situations.

If shiek likes to jump in neutral (to fair, as your brother likes to do a lot), laser it. Learn your short hop lasers, you don't use them often enough to control your brother's movement. Your brother noticeably freezes when he starts to get lasered, take advantage of it, spam the **** out of him.

Go work on your tech skill dude!

Edit: Sorry if that sounded harsh, it wasn't my intention. It's just that Melee is a game of options and without putting the work in you'll be playing with your hands tied behind your back. Limited options means limited things the opponent must consider which means you are a problem easily solved.

Part of the issue is that, quite simply, I'm pretty new to Falco. He performs way better against Marth because he knows the MU.

Cutting the dash attack isn't a problem at all. Around when do you typically press L/R for the L-Cancel with Falco? His L-Cancel timing feels different from Marth's.

I realized partway through that I was rolling too much, and I've been trying to get him to stop it. I'm working on properly implementing DD into my regular gameplay, and cutting out a lot of shields, but part of the issue is that I don't like Falco's DD because I'm so used to Marth.

I never noticed he froze up after a SHL. Good observation. I'm working on using those more consistently to control movement.

Sometimes I forget that teching exists and get too caught up in the fight, but once I actually start trying to use it, I do fairly consistently.

It didn't seem that harsh to me. I'm open to all kinds of critique, after all. Only been training competitively for about 2 months, and almost all of that was with Marth, so I figured starting a secondary was a good idea. Thanks all!

 

[OninO]

If you've only been playing for 2 months I wouldn't work in a secondary seriously. I would pick either Falco or Marth and stick with them for a year.

It's interesting that you speak about your brother knowing the Marth match up better. In a sense that's true, but it's more accurate to say he knows YOU as Marth better. You could challenge him a lot harder if you do the same thing you're doing here with your Marth. Look for the simple things you can do better (tech, always) and look at the things you do that are silly (I'm guessing dash attacking is probably in there ).

You're not going to beat your brother consistently by gimmicking with a secondary. You have to improve the fundamental aspects of your game.

Good luck!

 

[FE_Hector]

If you've only been playing for 2 months I wouldn't work in a secondary seriously. I would pick either Falco or Marth and stick with them for a year.

It's interesting that you speak about your brother knowing the Marth match up better. In a sense that's true, but it's more accurate to say he knows YOU as Marth better. You could challenge him a lot harder if you do the same thing you're doing here with your Marth. Look for the simple things you can do better (tech, always) and look at the things you do that are silly (I'm guessing dash attacking is probably in there ).

You're not going to beat your brother consistently by gimmicking with a secondary. You have to improve the fundamental aspects of your game.

Good luck!

1) I'm not able to attend too many tourneys right now, and my bro is my only regular opponent. Even after just 2 months, my Marth is getting quite good, so I figured it was about time to pick up a secondary.

2) Against my Marth, I actually typically beat him, however barely. Teching is getting way more accurate and I'm working on mixing it up

3) Thanks!