Help against Captain Falcon?

[Strider755]

I'm a charizard main, and there is one character that I simply cannot handle. I'm talking, of course, about Captain Falcon. My latest tournament endeavour ended just like my first, with me getting 6-stocked by the same Cap player who beat me the first time. I just can't handle Cap. Any suggestions?

 

[カワシさん]

Hmm.. this is a problem here.

I'm not a Charizard main but I think the main issue is a matter of two things:
1. Poor matchup. Captain Falcon moves very fast and a character like Charizard is slow and easily goes into combos
2. Charizard lacks moves that space out a fast character like Captain Falcon.

I don't think it is a matter of switching to a faster characted (sonic speed not required ) but rather developing strategies on spacing fast characters. That's what I think you should do. If you really want to though, you might want to switch to a faster character. You don't have to have it be speedy, but just not slow. Mario, Pit, or Donkey Kong are good starters.

 

[UtahCharizard]

I've actually never really had too much trouble with falcon. He can be really annoying tho. Just poke a lot with flamethrower and don't really approach. Wait for him to come to you and either shield his dash attack or grab and punish him from there.

Matches with falcon are usually pretty drawn out, but you can gimp him pretty easily with flamethrower

 

[Davregis]

Hmm.. this is a problem here.

I'm not a Charizard main but I think the main issue is a matter of two things:
1. Poor matchup. Captain Falcon moves very fast and a character like Charizard is slow and easily goes into combos
2. Charizard lacks moves that space out a fast character like Captain Falcon.

I don't think it is a matter of switching to a faster characted (sonic speed not required ) but rather developing strategies on spacing fast characters. That's what I think you should do. If you really want to though, you might want to switch to a faster character. You don't have to have it be speedy, but just not slow. Mario, Pit, or Donkey Kong are good starters.

If we start switching against poor matchups, we'll never even get to play Charizard after a certain point.

 

[AetherStorm]

Here's what I posted in the Charizard Matchup Thread.

Captain Falcon, huh? My friend mains Falcon, so I can help with that.

I'll start with the bad stuff. The matchup for us is... Unfavorable, to say the least. Falcon is just too fast to handle. As much as you would like to punish a whiffed dash grab with a smash, you can't. Falcon almost always has time to shield or roll away, so for punishes, you need to rely on grabs and reading his defensive options.

Obviously Zard is a master of being comboed, and the Cap is no stranger to taking advantage of that. When you're inevitably being thrown around, don't try to airdodge out, as it only leads to Falcon hitting you with a more dangerous move. Wait until he's out of jumps and forced to land and fastfall back to the ground, where you can more easily deal with him. Ultimately, if you just let him throw out some nairs and uairs, he gets some damage off; he can only kill you if you set yourself up for it.

Now, the knee is something you have to look out for. I'm not sure how obvious it is to people who aren't familiar with the matchup, but I immediately know when a Falcon is about to knee. This is the part where you tell him no. Rock smash that ****. Even a sweet spotted knee is nothing to rock smash. He puts himself in the perfect position to take the full 30%, and now he's above you. (Or dead, depending on his position and damage.) Even better, use rock hurl for this matchup. Frame one super armor and aerial coverage is a pretty good exception to the "let yourself get comboed" rule.

Flamethrower is a great tool in this matchup. (And every other matchup.) If you need to take a breather, just hit B. This is one of the only times when you have a natural advantage over Falcon. He can't run through it, and running at you is basically the only option he has. He will jump now. Falcon mains aren't patient people. As soon as he leaves the ground, release B and select the punish of greatest effectiveness. If you think he'll hit you before you have a chance to do anything, just shieldgrab. Uptilt, rock hurl, and even fly will work otherwise. Our frame six upsmash will do the trick best.

Flamethrower is, as we all know, great for edgeguarding too. This is especially true for Falcon. Angling this down over the edge can cause KOs if Falcon doesn't mash upB. The only problem there is that flamethrower runs out. The optimal place to stand is right where flamethrower doesn't go over the ledge, but rather hits the stage and goes horizontal, so falcon has to snap to the ledge. Now, all of his getup options are impossible, save for rolling. That's very easily punished with a smash or even fly.

In terms of sideB options, you should use dragon rush. (Although it's hilarious when you predict an approach and Falcon runs right into a blast burn.) We all know dragon rush's benefits, so I won't go over those, but backthrow into dragon rush (is that a true combo at 0% on Falcon? Can someone confirm or deconfirm that?) is great for carrying falcon offstage, and you can even use a bair and still recover. You don't really want to go offstage besides that, however. (Unless you're a cool kid and like going for spikes.) Falcon's offstage options are just too good for a character like Charizard to handle.

Other than that, just use a lot of SH nairs, jabs, and dtilts. Your goal is to stop Falcon from getting up in your grill. I don't know how the exact matchup ratio is decided, so if someone more experienced could figure that out, that would be cool.

EDIT for 1.0.8: It's important to note that Captain Falcon is a fastfaller, and you may need to get him to higher percents than normal to dthrow combo him. He will most likely try to fastfall and/or airdodge to the ground, so don't just follow up with aerials, mix it up with grabs or smash attacks.

 

[Strider755]

First of all, I don't always have the luxury of knowing i'm facing Cap due to double-blind picks.

So when i'm getting comboed, I should simply let Cap have his way with me and wait it out?

BTW, I use Rock Hurl over Rock Smash due to the frame 1 armor and combo potential w/Fly. I think that can help a bit. However, Flamethrower does have a good bit of startup lag. Of course, I always run Dragon Rush when it's allowed, and I've even figured out that bthrow-drush combo. I think that If I can handle the dash grab, I'll be good to go.

Finally, my practice options are limited due to my crappy wi-fi; it really comes down to 1 hour a week with friends. Is an amiibo a good idea?

 

[Strider755]

So when i'm getting comboed, I should simply let Cap have his way with me and wait it out?

BTW, I use Rock Hurl over Rock Smash due to the frame 1 armor and combo potential w/Fly. I think that can help a bit. However, Flamethrower does have a good bit of startup lag. Of course, I always run Dragon Rush when it's allowed, and I've even figured out that bthrow-drush combo. I think that If I can handle the dash grab, I'll be good to go.

Finally, my practice options are limited due to my crappy wi-fi; it really comes down to 1 hour a week with friends. Is a Captain Falcon amiibo a good idea? CPUs never dash grab like humans do.

 

[カワシさん]

If we start switching against poor matchups, we'll never even get to play Charizard after a certain point.

That's why I put "if you really want to." There are still ways to fighting fast foes.

Also, another piece of advice is to learn to read your opponent, and use that to develop openings to attack.

 

[Strider755]

A lot of times, my Zard going up against Cap is the result of a double-blind, which I really can't help. If I knew it would be Cap, i'd use Ness or Samus or ZSS.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

A lot of times, my Zard going up against Cap is the result of a double-blind, which I really can't help. If I knew it would be Cap, i'd use Ness or Samus or ZSS.

Well the thing about fighting Falcon online is that any sort of input lag will heavily favor speedy characters over slower characters like charizard. Especially if they have easy to pull off combos against you ( Dash Grab > Dthrow > Uair > Uair > Uair x infinity). If you play against a decent falcon in a good connection, you'll notice that he's much easier to deal with. Not free by any means, but the matchup is much more managable. You'll have an easier time taking advantage of the small punishment windows you have against him.

Tips against Falcon:

When I have to fight falcon in lag, I usually try to stay as mobile as possible, mixing up my movements with empty hops and poking with flamethrowers whenever I get the chance. You only have to get him offstage once, then you can go for the flamethrower edgeguard (which is much more potent in lag).

Don't give falcon too much respect. If you get him in a followup position, take advantage of it. Thats your chance to get him offstage or abuse him back. Falcon doesn't exactly have the best landing options in the world, so you can juggle him.

Short hop flamethrowers can catch him if he's constantly hopping around.

Don't get hasty if you're getting juggled. A common mistake people make is that they try to land right next to the opponent after getting knocked into the air. Don't try to rush back into the fight, if the falcon player is waiting to punish your landing options, use your multiple jumps to mix up where you're going to land. You can land with Nair, Fair, Flamethorwer, Rocksmash, Fly (Hard Read), a or even do nothing. Don't be too predictable. The last thing you want is to eat a falcon knee for free.

Last tip, don't consantly stay in your shield. Falcons love to go for the dash grab, especially in wifi since it's so good.



Overall Falcon vs Char is a pri lame matchup in lag, but once you get him offstage, the MU pretty much becomes +9 in Charizard's favor. A properly spaced Flamehrower gimp vs Falcon does wonders.

 

[J0A0B]

I've had my quarrels with Captain Falcon, and I still do on a count of his overrated appearance and annoying throw/kill abuse. Now I seem to do well against him whenever I pick Charizard. Whenever I get creamed by a Falcon for using Mewtwo, Roy, etc, I pick Charizard as a personal counter and survive all the tactics he throws at me. That's what they get for picking him so much... PREDICTABILITY.

Some tips? Be evasive from his combos. Don't be afraid to jump away to the edge, but do read if he tries to gimp with air attacks or Up-tilt. Either stay low near the edge, or counter with F.air or Rock Smash. Bait him to use his dash grab and then immediately spot dodge and retaliate with pokes. Also, when edgegaurding with flamethrower, bait him to use his Up.B and back away to let him land. This leaves plenty of time to finish him with a F.Smash. Eventually you'll get the opportunity to give him a kill throw or up smash with enough patience via poking and spacing. I especially like to space with F.tilt or D.tilt when he rushes at me. This is all done in online lag too. I'm starting to feel the match-up is not so terrible as long as you learn to remember all the pain Falcon can cause to you.

 

[Strider755]

I think I should try that. I wont get a chance until Wednesday, unless one of you has a 3DS.

 

[J0A0B]

One more thing. Some C. Falcon players can act more advanced and spot dodge constantly whenever they feel they're vulnerable. If you start noticing him spot dodging whenever he whiffs a throw or his attack is blocked, that is the time to anticipate and rely on patience to throw him after he pulls a spot dodge. They'll regret it.

 

[Strider755]

Good to know.

 

[Knee Smasher]

I honestly do not understand why so many Charizard players experience trouble against Captain Falcon, especially if such players are the same who constantly complain about how defensive Smash 4 as a game is at high levels of play, since such defensively-oriented nature of the game is exactly why this matchup is in Charizard's favor.

Because you have a projectile and he does not, he is forced to approach you, and this puts him at an inherent disadvantage against you since you have so many moves (jab, Flamethrower, Nair, Rock Smash and shieldgrab) that completely shut down his approaches. I think most Charizard players' problem with this matchup is their lack of patience in playing the bait and punish game (they have nothing to lose from turtling in this matchup), resulting in them being too recklessly aggressive and therefore getting punished.

Take a look at the following video. It is me against the best Captain Falcon player I've ever fought. His Captain Falcon far surpasses my own, being capable of 2-stocking mine while taking about 50% damage, yet I was still able to win with Charizard. Look at the way I played Charizard and the tactics I employed, then think about how you are playing Charizard differently in this matchup.

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video consists of innumerable pictures, so I think this video will be the best advice you will receive in this thread:

Never forget that Charizard is a versatile character whose ideal playstyle varies like night and day depending on which character he is fighting against. Against a character like ROB, Duck Hunt or Toon Link, Charizard is ideally played aggressively. But against a character like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf or Shulk, Charizard is ideally played in a very defensive and turtle-like manner, backing away and walling them out with falling Flamethrowers and jab spams. Unlike many other characters like Captain Falcon and ROB, Charizard is not a character you can just label as being rushdown or defensive, as whether he should be played as one or the other, or in any other style, depends entirely on who he is fighting against. Know your matchups, and know the way this flexible character should ideally be played in each of them.

 

[Steeler]

I think that's a pretty good indicator of how Zard should play the matchup. But I think the reason most Zards struggle (and why Falcon has a slight advantage) is the ridiculous range and speed of his dash grab. When Falcon is at a slight distance, you have to tread very lightly because Falcon just has a more effective bait and punish game here. His cooldowns are much shorter and his dash speed is faster. If you are able to guess how and when he wants to go in then you will win, but that's why it's only a slight advantage for Falcon. You can play your way out of it. He doesn't zone you forever like Zero Suit, he just kind of dances around and tries to catch you when you are vulnerable. It's a bit more difficult for Zard to punish something he does, you sometimes have to predict his spot dodges or rolls (ie outplay him).

 

[Knee Smasher]

As a person who mains both Charizard and Captain Falcon, I can assure you that that is false.

Captain Falcon is a great character, but the faculty of neutral game and approach is far from a strength of his. His biggest weakness in this matchup is the fact that he does not possess a single approach option that is safe on spot-dodge, whereas Charizard's Flamethrower is safe on both shield and spot-dodge. Captain Falcon's dash-grab speed and range is certainly incredible, but in the neutral game, it is not more effective against Charizard than Charizard's Flamethrower and jab spam is against Captain Falcon.

Spamming jab with Charizard as I did in that video I posted is a tactic which I personally call "counter-punishing" (I am not sure if there is another term for this). This tactic involves using a move which baits the opponent into dashing towards the user in an attempt to punish them, only to punish their attempt at punishment. It mostly involves using a move which at least seems to have some degree of ending lag, only to punish the opponent for their attempt to punish the user. For example, say Charizard uses an attack like Dsmash, Rock Smash, Nair or Flamethrower, while the opponent rolls back and Charizard's attack completely misses. At that instant, the opponent is extremely likely to immediately dash towards Charizard to attempt a punish with dash grab or dash attack, at which point all the Charizard player has to do is spam jab immediately after the ending lag of their previous attack is over, and then the opponent will charge straight into Charizard's jab, getting effectively counter-punished. You can see me doing this many times in the video above, as well as in many others videos on my YouTube channel, and this tactic is especially useful against Captain Falcon, Fox and other fast rushdown characters.

Flamethrower, Rock Smash and Nair also work as counter-punishing moves, with the former offering more range than jab-spamming, the latter offering more power, and the third offering the ability to shut down aerial approaches, though none of those come out as fast as Charizard's jab.

 

[Steeler]

The jab spam is definitely a great tactic to use against impatient players, but what you are describing is why I think Charizard struggles against fast characters like Falcon. You have to throw jab out (or some other defensive option) because you have to have some kind of response to how they want to take advantage of your cooldowns. They just have to not run into your jab in order to punish that. This is more of an issue offline since the lag online makes it even more difficult for opponents to punish your moves before you can get a jab out. You really need to basically guess when they are going to try to get in you and have a proper response for it. Against some players you can pretty much guess every time they try to dash into you and jab them, but what if they mix it up and roll behind you? Or full hop nair from above you? Or just wait? You have to mix up your options too. Jab won't defend you from everything, and that's the issue Charizard has against fast characters who can threaten you from a distance. Your answers don't cover most every option, so you have to guess. And most of your answers are a bit laggy and punishable if you guess wrong. Jab is probably the safest bet, but you bet your ass good players will see you jab preemptively a couple of times and start taking advantage of it.

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

There actually is another term for "counter-punishing," and it's a Frame Trap, which is, as quoted from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Frame_Trap

A tactic in which you use a move that seems to be punishable but is actually advantageous on block, baiting the opponent into being punished when they attempt to retaliate.

This is also what Alex Valle is famous for, though not exactly for frame traps, but the idea of them, as David Sirlin documents here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/the-attackers

Zard definitely has these with Jab, DTilt, UTilt, (SH) NAir, and (SH) FAir, which is among one of the top reasons that I'd rep Zard over Duck Hunt and even Bowser Jr against good Falcons, particularly when customs are off. DH & Jr would need customs on for me to feel comfortable fighting Falcons (DH would need 3122 and Jr would need 3322 or 3321). Not Zard, who, while 1313 would be quite beneficial for him in this MU, can at least manage going 1111 more than both DH & even Jr, since Side 1 can catch rolls and some of Falcon's moves from a distance for KOs at 100+%, and Down 1 at least has a good payoff if timed well (not having frame 1 super armor does suck, I'll admit). The super armor on Down 1 when coming down to the stage, and especially Up 1 when coming back to the stage against an overzealous Falcon that's itching to Knee or DAir/UTilt/BAir (stage) spike you will be one of your saving graces (another one of my top reasons).

 

[SirJuicius]

As a person who mains both Charizard and Captain Falcon, I can assure you that that is false.

Captain Falcon is a great character, but the faculty of neutral game and approach is far from a strength of his. His biggest weakness in this matchup is the fact that he does not possess a single approach option that is safe on spot-dodge, whereas Charizard's Flamethrower is safe on both shield and spot-dodge. Captain Falcon's dash-grab speed and range is certainly incredible, but in the neutral game, it is not more effective against Charizard than Charizard's Flamethrower and jab spam is against Captain Falcon.

Spamming jab with Charizard as I did in that video I posted is a tactic which I personally call "counter-punishing" (I am not sure if there is another term for this). This tactic involves using a move which baits the opponent into dashing towards the user in an attempt to punish them, only to punish their attempt at punishment. It mostly involves using a move which at least seems to have some degree of ending lag, only to punish the opponent for their attempt to punish the user. For example, say Charizard uses an attack like Dsmash, Rock Smash, Nair or Flamethrower, while the opponent rolls back and Charizard's attack completely misses. At that instant, the opponent is extremely likely to immediately dash towards Charizard to attempt a punish with dash grab or dash attack, at which point all the Charizard player has to do is spam jab immediately after the ending lag of their previous attack is over, and then the opponent will charge straight into Charizard's jab, getting effectively counter-punished. You can see me doing this many times in the video above, as well as in many others videos on my YouTube channel, and this tactic is especially useful against Captain Falcon, Fox and other fast rushdown characters.

Flamethrower, Rock Smash and Nair also work as counter-punishing moves, with the former offering more range than jab-spamming, the latter offering more power, and the third offering the ability to shut down aerial approaches, though none of those come out as fast as Charizard's jab.

Good analysis. I watched your video the other day and played the way you suggested against projectile and non projectile users. Great advice.

 

[Purple_Anteater]

I haven't yet met a captain falcon on FG that can beat my charizard. I play super defensively and they just can't get in. Ftilt, Dtilt, Jab, Nair, Fair, full hop Bair, flamethrower. Grab him, combo him, pressure him when you get in, and at higher percents throw him off stage and wreck his recovery. Rinse and repeat. Offline it might be more difficult, because they can react better. Just make safe/soft reads until you win.