Help a marth out

[Hunybear]

So i have a lot of questions. What are Marth's strengths and weaknesses according to the stage he's on, Why is Shiek such a good counter pick for Marth. What should i do when i'm stuck in Falco's SHFFl (he short hops Dairs and shines and i don't know how to alleviate shield pressure that well) and i'm in full shielding btw. I have trouble killing floaties (especially luigi and peach.) Why not to use the counter (people tell me not to use it but it works so good against puff.) also i see people jump on the edge when their edge guarding then jump off and spike the guy who's returning and upB back on the edge but every time i do that i cant get back to the stage because of the lag :\ Also also why's it such a pain to kill characters at high percents and what are some good strategies to kill them at low percents. Ok i think that's it.

 

[Hunybear]

Oh and in Marth didos is it a viable option to counter the other marths upB with a counter. That's what i do to my friends but their not all that great at the game but it worked against everyone I've played against so far.

 

[Boondocker]

I was also wondering what Marth's best to worst stages are, and why. I heard m2k say that FD was by far his best stage, but does he have any other?

 

[Crispus]

So I have a very limited knowledge base of this game ( it seems like no one person can understand this entire game perfectly), but my understanding is that Marth does best on stages where he can effectively control all of his opponents actions (no duh, right? this should be every char). His range and speed lean toward being able outspace and control the opponent, and the best stages for that from what I understand are where the opponent can't avoid Marth's presence a la Yoshi's(small) and FD(nowhere to run, but enough space to work with/dem grabs). ofc these are the pretty obvious picks, but past that, imo stadium is third (No top platform small blast box), fountain is fourth (top plat is like yoshi's, small, although other platforms can mess you up), then battlefield, and finally dreamland. I read somewhere a while ago that the top platform on the last two stages kind of negates marth's zoning/control, and I've found that to be very true.

 

[Crispus]

Yoshi's is the best because Randall is a total swag monster.

 

[DireDrop]

So i have a lot of questions. What are Marth's strengths and weaknesses according to the stage he's on, Why is Shiek such a good counter pick for Marth. What should i do when i'm stuck in Falco's SHFFl (he short hops Dairs and shines and i don't know how to alleviate shield pressure that well) and i'm in full shielding btw. I have trouble killing floaties (especially luigi and peach.) Why not to use the counter (people tell me not to use it but it works so good against puff.) also i see people jump on the edge when their edge guarding then jump off and spike the guy who's returning and upB back on the edge but every time i do that i cant get back to the stage because of the lag :\ Also also why's it such a pain to kill characters at high percents and what are some good strategies to kill them at low percents. Ok i think that's it.

I'm no expert either but I'll do my best. Sheik is a good counterpick to Marth because she has a stronger neutral game against him and has an easier time killing him. If she lands a grab she automatically gets 40%. If she lands a dash attack she automatically gets a fair. Ftilt combos into... another Ftilt, and like 8 other things. She can use needles to force Marth to approach which is dangerous because she can punish Marth really hard.

If Falco is Dair Shining you like crazy then you either have to roll or wavedash oos. If you do roll, make sure to use the C-stick. It's the only way to guarantee you'll start the invincibility frames soon enough. I do not recommend trying to punish the Dair Shine.

Utilt is probably the best floatie kill move. However, floaties live forever. That's just how it is. The matchup will a lot less frustrating once you "lower your expectations" so to speak.

People say not to use counter because it's basically an all-in. If you miss it, your opponent gets a free punish if their choice. You're welcome to continue taking that risk, but as you fight higher level opponents you'll find it pays off less and less.

If you're having trouble spiking off stage, you just need to practice more. It's a matter of releasing the edge, jumping, then dairing as quickly as possible. Try releasing the ledge by moving the stick away rather than down. That way you lose less vertical distance. Don't fast fall the dair.

Marth gets his early kills by edge guarding. Learn to use Dtilit properly and master wavedashing onto the ledge. By being on the ledge you force your opponent to recover to the stage where they'll have lots of landing lag from their upB. Then you can grab and Down throw to get them off stage again. However, I have found that I need a different strategy for every character. Play a lot against good people and ask questions. You'll figure it out.

 

[djmath]

Here's a recent marth vs. puff, really sick match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y5xAb_5GgQ
This is why stages are important; on bigger stages like dreamland, Marth's zoning tools become less effective because the size of the stage give the opponent more places to run to and it's harder for marth to cover, control, and capitalize on his opponent's options. For marth stage preference, I'd say Yoshi's is first, FD is second, FoD, battlefield, stadium, and then dreamland. Stadium can actually be a very good pick, but space animals will mess you up on the transformations. Winning the stages you pick is very important.

As for sheik, she's only a soft-counter to marth. The majority of Sheik's gameplay is about sneaking into your zoning range and wrecking your ****. Chaingrabs, tilts, just really nasty combos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREm4Bsw58M . the MU is in sheik's favor, but watch how PP handles it: it's all about keeping sheik out.

It's hard to kill at high percents because after around 120% marth's moves don't combo into tippers or other killmove setups/situations. Ken combos are good gimps, but nothing beats a good edge guard. Never be afraid of wavedashing off the edge and grabbing it, very safe option, usually works. Dtilt, neutral B, and F smash also cover a lot of options. If you're feeling flashy, you can do a rising Dair from the ledge or even do 3rd hit of dancing blade down, which spikes.

For guarding Marth's recovery from off the stage, if they're not going to land on top of the stage (i.e. they are either going to sweetspot or end up near the ledge but not touching it) you can face away from the ledge and light shield, and before they can grab the ledge you will tumble off the side from shield stun and grab it.

As for counter, people will say what they will about its use, but I stand by it's judicious use. There are times when counter is not only your only option, but it is fact a very good option. Yes, missing a counter is a punish opportunity for your opponent, there is nothing more embarrassing than an empty counter. Bad counters and ruin a match, but good counters can save your skin. If you know your opponent is going to attack you no matter what, counter. Ken Vs PC chris, old school matches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fv2Z-ikYSg . Counter at high level play

 

[Clebus]

If you're feeling flashy, you can do a rising Dair from the ledge or even do 3rd hit of dancing blade down, which spikes.

It meteor smashes, which is an important difference.
I thought it did at least.

 

[Stif]

It meteor smashes, which is an important difference.
I thought it did at least.

Im pretty sure marth's dair is one of the few true spikes

 

[Clebus]

I was talking about the dancing blade
dair def spikes

 

[djmath]

I was talking about the dancing blade
dair def spikes

Yeah my bad, dancing blade is a meteor, dair is a spike.

 

[burntfish44]

-Yoshi's is a good stage because free tippers on the platforms, leading to early kills
-FD is a good stage because you can either chainthrow spacies (they can't escape to a platform) and it just allows free combo potential in general, also i've come to love the underside of the stage and using it with up-B to achieve different things like hitting opponents edgeguarding or sweetspotting etc
-battlefield is a decent stage if you can keep stage control and don't screw up your recovery and die (get 'battlefielded'), again with the free tipper f-smashes on platforms

For spiking someone recovering, just practice it a few times and you'll get the hang of it. Input looks like :

*hanging on ledge* > push stick away from ledge > jump and push stick towards stage > c stick down (better than A+down cuz that could make you fastfall and die) > land on stage safely, optional L cancel