Hellz yeah! Sexy new Up b set-up

[§witch]

Alright, so I dunno if alot of you guys know of something mango used to do with jiggs in melee, but he used to hit with an aerial on the ground and they'd fall. he'd then jab (they'd be in a jab lock state) and he'd get a free rest.

Let's apply this to brawl. Luigi's up b is amazing, and leading up to it can be very hard to do. So here's how this can work, some of you may have noticed that fireball puts them in a lock state where they get up automatically with no control over what they can do. So, bair, if it knocks them down, followed by a fireball. They get annnnnnnnnnnnnd...................
SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORYYYYYYYUUUUKEN!

 

[WIGI]

is this a theaory or does it work?

Vids please.

if its nto just a theaoryis it excapable?

 

[hippiedude92]

So are you saying a Dair spike, to a fireball lock to a shoryuken? -_-.

By the time you run to them after finishing your fireball lock, they'll be in their inciviblity frames enabling either rolling left/right or getup attack. This is escapeable my good man.

 

[§witch]

It needs more testing, and I'll get a vid up tonight. Though i have got it to work before, you might as well give it a try, I can't do any testing right this minute. No, bair, fireball. They can't get up attack or roll from a lock stage, which is the point.

 

[hippiedude92]

Your better off finishing them off with a upangled fsmash espically if their traped near the edge because, once you get them in fireball lock state which is probably going to end near the end of the stage which is near the edge, of course you'll just techchase and predict and go for a up angled fsmash. Also it's safer than a shoryuken.


oh and bair doesnt knock them down, dair spiking does.

 

[MasterToshima]

So are you saying a Dair spike, to a fireball lock to a shoryuken? -_-.

Wait, who swaid Dair? he said Bair, right?

 

[§witch]

Bair can hit them at a weird angle on the stage, ONE fireball only, not fast enough to work more than once and up b/fsmash.

 

[MasterToshima]

nah, to complicated, besides, it's escapable easily.

It's a nice idea but im gonna stick with other shoyruken setups...

 

[§witch]

Really? I like the fact that you took Hippie's (while uninformed) word for gospel, even though he hadn't given it a try. I know that he knows his stuff, and is a competent luigi main, etc, etc. And having a complicated, yet, inescapable (as of now, with my lack of proper testing, so, disregard that) is better than an escapable "easier" combo.

 

[hippiedude92]

Don't get me wrong there, I mean it's great people like you are coming up with ideas, it justs my 2 cents. Of course I would test, I'm not the kind of person to test stuff because of how my f**king ********-ness is. But I'm always open for disagreeing (with testing/proof) which makes it better.

 

[MasterToshima]

Really? I like the fact that you took Hippie's (while uninformed) word for gospel, even though he hadn't given it a try. I know that he knows his stuff, and is a competent luigi main, etc, etc. And having a complicated, yet, inescapable (as of now, with my lack of proper testing, so, disregard that) is better than an escapable "easier" combo.

wait, wait.

I didn't took Hippie's word for gospel. I thought he spelled Bair an Dair. Lol.

aw, forget it im too tired for writing posts.

 

[§witch]

haha, I need someone competent offline to test, so i need to do it to my friend so, tomorrow I will have a definitive answer. I'll need to get the % ratio down as well, but after I figure out it's inescapable it will be easier.

For now, think of the ICs infinite.

Dthrow>fairspike>iceblock>they get up, and repeat.

wait, wait.

I didn't took Hippie's word for gospel. I thought he spelled Bair an Dair. Lol.

aw, forget it im too tired for writing posts.

nah, to complicated, besides, it's escapable easily.

It's a nice idea but im gonna stick with other shoyruken setups...

 

[ALiAsVee]

Switch, unless you have done this and have a video, we assume you are only speaking in theory. In theory I have a 1000 different UpB set ups, but i can't use them in practice now can I? This set up is not practical at all. Back your stuff up.

If you want to be effective, show this setup being used against a competent player in the thick of a battle.

 

[§witch]

Alright, I need to get it done vs my friend like i said. I have done it, after I did the bair>fireball lock, I thought it would work, anyways, hopefully tomorrow i will have a video.

 

[MasterToshima]

Alright, I need to get it done vs my friend like i said. I have done it, after I did the bair>fireball lock, I thought it would work, anyways, hopefully tomorrow i will have a video.

great, can't wait 4 the video.

what about dair?

 

[Greenstreet]

What Happens:

B-air's moderate knockback would place your opponent a fair distance away, depending on %.
Unless you SH'ed this B-air, there would be no time to reach the ground, even fast falled, before the opponent had a chance to get up. You also need to complete a turnaround, or reverse fireball before you are facing the right direction. Although this only takes an extra couple of frames, you are just giving your opponent more and more time.
Also the more time you are giving your opponent the more time they have to either

1:Get up (have a chance to knock away the fireball with the get-up attack)
2: Roll out: Which could take them out of range of the fireball

But yeah, let's assume you SH'ed the B-air...
The get knocked back about, 3/4 the length of a fireball (lets assume, as percentages are unknown).

You then either:

1. Land, turnaround and shoot some green
2. Attempt a reverse fireball out of the SH'ed aerial

In either of these situations the only problem is the fireball. It is a fairly slow moving projectile and unfortunately alot of characters have get-up attacks that will cancel if out, or rolls that will move them out of range.
Furthermore, if the fireball hits, there is still problems.
Assuming (sorry, I am assuming again) that they were originally knocked back that 3/4 range I really doubt that Luigi can get there in time before they perform a roll or get-up attack.
There is considerable lag after the fireball is shot, and Luigi's running speed....well it's just not Sonic is it?

I personally haven't tried this, but I am about to jump into training mode and test it on a dummy. In theory, it is a workable move, but it requires a very specific response from your opponent. In any other response, the fireball will get blocked, rolled away from or you will miss your FJP and get punished.

That's just my view of this scenario, please don;t take it for granted...lower percentages might prove different, but then again they may not. I will edit once I know...

EDIT:

Result of Training Mode:

So I checked it out in training mode, and if you can actually get a person to hit the ground before having a chance to air-dodge or attack out, then kudos to ya. The angle in which the B-air projects the opponent (tested on Marth btw) makes it fairly impossible for them to land on their faces. If they can, I haven't seen it.
So then I move on to D-air spiking, which some people mentioned before. I tried it at past 50% so they would actually get knocked down far enough and:
At most percentages, until you get to ridiculously high ones, they still have enough time to get up as you land, and way before you have a chance to shoot a fireball.
Realisticly, the best option you should have if you SH'ed the D-air is a buffered d-smash or f-smash I guess, depending on whether they rolled to your opposite side.

Btw, just because I couldn't get this to work doesn't mean it's impossible. By all means, test it out for yourself, play around and let me know..

Further Training Mode Stuff:

Okay, so I've got the opponent knocked over with a b-air and I've fireballed him and I've FJP'ed him. So now the theory works. Only problem is, the computer lies on the ground alot longer than a real opponent would. Problem two, the opponent was Fox, so he is a fast faller, so it was easy to get him in the state.
So in theory this does work, it is possible to ground them with a B-air, but there is still time to roll away or get up attack.
It may be useful as a surprise once, but once again, the opponents response has to be to lay down for that half a second longer.

You need to hit them with a certain part of the bair, at a certain spot for it to work.

A normal Sh'ed B-air is fine, but the percentage at which it is done is absolutely crucial. It would also be different for every character, so although this can work in theory it is very situational. I definitely felt good when I pulled it off though. I'll try using it in some matches and we'll see if the opponent reacts how I want them to.

 

[§witch]

Yes, I meant a SH'ed bair. You need to hit them with a certain part of the bair, at a certain spot for it to work (I need to do more testing.) And this is all at your discretion, if you think you won't make it, then use a up tilted fsmash. Bair>forward DI'ed aerial reverse fireball. That specific.

 

[ALiAsVee]

Yes, I meant a SH'ed bair. You need to hit them with a certain part of the bair, at a certain spot for it to work (I need to do more testing.) And this is all at your discretion, if you think you won't make it, then use a up tilted fsmash. Bair>forward DI'ed aerial reverse fireball. That specific.

And where do you intend to hit someone with the bair, on the ground? Even if that was possible it would be a sweetspot even smaller than the dair spike. I bair nonstop and I have never struck someone down long enough to initiate a fireball lock, much appreciated if you could get that vid up tommorow.

 

[Greenstreet]

And where do you intend to hit someone with the bair, on the ground? Even if that was possible it would be a sweetspot even smaller than the dair spike. I bair nonstop and I have never struck someone down long enough to initiate a fireball lock, much appreciated if you could get that vid up tommorow.

The scenario in which I got it done was in training mode against a fox, and yes, the biggest problem is, although the computer does, a human will not likely stay on the ground for that half a second longer that it takes for a fireball to hit.
I have however played people who wait to get up so they can geta hit out of it. In this instance you can pull off the fireball. That having been said, the fireball gets us in the exact same situation as before, that being, the opponent has to stay on the ground half a second longer for the FJP to be possible. And assuming they were annoyed by even getting hit by the fireball, I doubt they will stick around on the floor to see what else is coming.

So I agree at this point.

 

[§witch]

But if you DI a reversed fireball on the way down you can be close enough after they hop from the fireball lock, it's workable.

 

[Greenstreet]

I'll go try it.

Results:

Okay so I've jumped onto training mode and done the reverse fireball attempt. This having been said it does work a heck of alot faster and gets you much closer to the opponent. I am starting to like the idea of this setup, as SH'ed b-airs aren't hard to pull off for Luigi. I'll post again when I confirm its use against a human opponent who is trying to get out of it.

It's lookin good so far Switch! The only big issue I see is it being only able to be used at certain percentages for certain characters. It probly would be worth looking into for each character if you were desperate. I have got it to work at 52% on snake and 60% on fox, and I cant seem to get Marth on the floor at all. But we'll see ay..

 

[Locuan]

Your better off finishing them off with a upangled fsmash espically if their traped near the edge because, once you get them in fireball lock state which is probably going to end near the end of the stage which is near the edge, of course you'll just techchase and predict and go for a up angled fsmash. Also it's safer than a shoryuken.


oh and bair doesnt knock them down, dair spiking does.

All I have to say is:

What he^^^^ said.

don't think of the shoryuken as a reliable move in fact ask wigi, when did I use Up-B against him? Not even once. I relied more on Bairs, nado's, and pretty much anything that kept me aerial wise.

Actually now that I think of it did I kill you with a smash WIGI? I think it was just off-stage gimping most of the time . I just know that you got me with Up-B once and with a couple of up-angled f-smashes.

EDIT:

@ Greenstreet: You need to test it with a human opponent who is DI'ing in different manners. Not with a cpu, (they don't know what's DI) I guess that about summarizes it.

 

[Greenstreet]

don't think of the shoryuken as a reliable move in fact ask wigi, when did I use Up-B against him? Not even once. I relied more on Bairs, nado's, and pretty much anything that kept me aerial wise.

That's true. But in this instance, Switch was hoping that this setup is a true combo. Now I havent tested it out on a human player yet to verify Switch's claims completely, but if there is potential here for a combo, then an Up-B will have relatively low risk.
But yes, smashes will do the job also. But at the moment, this kind of setup seems to only be working around the 60% mark on fast-fall characters (that I have tested anyway), so a smash probably won't KO, where a FJP will.

@locuan: Hey mate, Yes I know I need to test it on a human, by last few posts have pretty much emphasised that point (examples of such are quoted below), I am in no way supporting this as a legitimate setup, I'm just doing some prelimanary testing to see whether it was feasable at all first (as there was controversy over whether b-air can knock them to the ground).
That's really all I was interested in testing, but now that I know it is 'technically' possible, I'll probably grab a mate and do some DI testing. My last few posts have stated that it is only working on CPUs and that human reactions will be different, so I know what I need to test.

I'll post again when I confirm its use against a human opponent who is trying to get out of it.

The scenario in which I got it done was in training mode against a fox, and yes, the biggest problem is, although the computer does, a human will not likely stay on the ground for that half a second longer that it takes for a fireball to hit.

Only problem is, the computer lies on the ground alot longer than a real opponent would.

 

[Locuan]

That's true. But in this instance, Switch was hoping that this setup is a true combo. Now I havent tested it out on a human player yet to verify Switch's claims completely, but if there is potential here for a combo, then an Up-B will have relatively low risk.
But yes, smashes will do the job also. But at the moment, this kind of setup seems to only be working around the 60% mark on fast-fall characters (that I have tested anyway), so a smash probably won't KO, where a FJP will.

@locuan: Hey mate, Yes I know I need to test it on a human, by last few posts have pretty much emphasised that point, I am in no way supporting this as a legitimate setup, I'm just doing some prelimanary testing to see whether it was feasable at all first (as there was controversy over whether b-air can knock them to the ground).
That's really all I was interested in testing, but now that I know it is 'technically' possible, I'll probably grab a mate and do some DI testing. My last few posts have stated that it is only working on CPUs and that human reactions will be different, so I know what I need to test.

I didn't talk about smashes being good at 60%

Either way, we will be waiting for your final results. If it works awesome if it doesn't o well.

 

[Greenstreet]

Yeah, I only mentions the whole 60% thing because that's the percentages it seems to be working for me at this stage. I am not sure how Switch is getting it done, but that seems to be around the Magic Number for me.
Umm the smash thing... I was wasn't really referring to anything you said, hippiedude stated that an up-angled f-smash would be a better option as Up-B can be punished if missed, so I was just saying that if this is a combo of any sort it wouldn't matter which one is used. And since FJP will kill at 60% I'd say it's more useful. So yeah, wasn't really rebutting anything stated, just putting it out there...

Ok, I'll see if a mate wants to head round here and try it. Although I don't know how I thrust myself into defending this thread, when I was so critical at the beginning lol.

RESULTS:

So finally we can put this thread to rest. My mate popped around and we tested this setup out. We used fox, a reasonable fast faller, and the percentage was set at 50%, (a percentage we knew causes a fall). Unfortunately Switch, the results weren't good. The opponent was able to dodgeland almost everytime before hitting the ground.
We even let the fall occur and the fireball did hit, but the opponent was able to roll in either direction or just get-up-attack before Luigi can get there.
So.... yeah.

Interesting Side Point: If the opponent rolls toward you, and if Luigi is running in for the FJP, you will both meet in the perfect spot for the FJP lol.

Conclusion: Unfortunately, the intensely slim odds of this situation arising make this setup's effectiveness negligible. I mean, there is a range of about 15% that this will work on (and only on fast falling characters as well). This makes this setup almost useless in terms of use in high levels of play.

Okay, well I'm out. I was rooting for this to work but that's OK.
L8as.

 

[§witch]

Ok, I've given it some more testing (still waiting on my friend) and I've gotten the same %'s as green street. The first time I did it, it worked on bowser. The more floaty characters can probably jump out before hitting the ground, and I'm pretty sure they can tech the landing. IF they see it coming. I'm thinking that a wavebounced fireball towrds the opponent could give a nice slide and get us even close, hoorah for low traction.

 

[Greenstreet]

Ok, I've given it some more testing (still waiting on my friend) and I've gotten the same %'s as green street. The first time I did it, it worked on bowser. The more floaty characters can probably jump out before hitting the ground, and I'm pretty sure they can tech the landing. IF they see it coming. I'm thinking that a wavebounced fireball towrds the opponent could give a nice slide and get us even close, hoorah for low traction.

Yeah, it's pretty darn circumstantial mate. Btw you can just call me Greenie, as Greenstreet is my last name.

 

[§witch]

MY CONCLUSION: Do it on scrubs, they'll think you're a god.

Anyways, at least it's debunked, thanks Greenie.